Hannah, Nether Flux, and defining "Associated With"

[Pyrflamme]

I've got Hannah sitting in my paint queue, and I recently reviewed her card, and I have a rules question that springs from the phrasing of Nether Flux.

For reference, the wording of Nether Flux is as follows:

Nether Flux: Enemy models within 4 of Hannah ignore any suits associated with their Ca, Sh, and Ml stats.

By contrast, the wording on Counterspell specifies that enemy models lose all suits printed in the Ca.

That got me wondering, is there a practical difference between the two that impacts gameplay? Does "associated with" carry certain baggage that "printed" doesn't? On one hand, I don't want to be a dillweed, but on the other hand, I want to benefit from the full extent of her ability, within the rules of the game. This ability is also found on the Freikorps Librarian, so it's not exactly limited.

The questions are as follows:

1) Does this affect suits which are printed in the text of the ability? (e.g. Ca 6)

2) Does this affect suits which are added to Ca/Sh/Ml actions?

3) Does this affect suits which are added to duels arising from Ca/Sh/Ml actions?

4) Does this affect suits which are added to generic duels?

Before I go on to each one, I would imagine that flipped, cheated and soulstoned suits are not impacted by the wording of Nether Flux, because those additions are not tied to the presence of Ca/Sh/Ml.

1) Does Nether Flux affect suits which are printed in the text of the ability?

 I would argue this is a YES. I don't think you can get much closer to "associated with" than having the suits literally printed within the action.

2) Does Nether Flux affect suits which are specifically added to Ca/Sh/Ml actions?

This is where it gets tricky. Some models can get suits added to specific actions either through their own abilities or through those of others. I would specifically cite the Daydream's ability to sacrifice itself to give The Dreamer "Lucid: This model gains + to Ca actions". Does this count as "associated" with a Ca action? It's a big difference between the Dreamer having to spend a high Mask and a SS versus one of either if he's in Hannah's aura while benefiting from Lucid.

3) Does Nether Flux affect suits which are added to duels arising from Ca/Sh/Ml actions?

My example here would be Perdita's Point Blank ability, which reads: "While engaged, this model gains to all Sh duels". Does this qualify as "associated", if you perform a Sh duel which arises from performing a Sh action?

4) Does this affect suits which are added to generic duels?

I kind of want to say...no, based on the soulstone/flipped/cheated card reasoning. It needs to specifically call out a Ca/Sh/Ml action as in 2, in my opinion. This would leave alone stuff like the Nurse's Illegible Prescription, Som'ner's Do It Like Dis, so on and so forth.

 

 

[Adran]

I'd agree with that. Adding to  the duel is not associated with the state. 

[Freman]

I interpret "associated with" as anything printed on the card, but you're right, it is a bit ambiguous. The ability of a Freikorpsman to discard a card to add that suit to his duels would be unaffected, but a model with a built in suit on their shooting, melee, or casting ability would lose it while within four inches of Hannah, or any Freikorps librarian.

 

She also has Counterspell as you've noted.

[solkan]

For cross references:

Governor's Proxy

Quote

(1) A Word in Your Ear (Ca 4 / Rst: Wp / Rg: 12): Target gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: “Influenced: This model loses any suit associated with it’s Ca and Wp.”

Hanna's Nether Flux:

Quote

Nether Flux: Enemy models within 4 of Hannah ignore any suits associated with their Ca, Sh, and Ml stats.

The campaign's Aetheric Disruptor (same as the Librarian's ability):

Quote

Nether Fluctuation: Enemy models within4 of this model ignore any suits associated with their Ca, Sh, and Ml stats.

 

I believe the answer to "What are the suits associated with X stat?" comes down to "What's the model's modified stat value?" and it's going to be:

- The printed value is part of the answer.

- Effects which modify the stat are part of the answer.

- Effects which modify the duel are NOT part of the answer.

- The card flipped is NOT part of the answer.

- The duel total is NOT part of the answer.

So

7 hours ago, Pyrflamme said:

1) Does this affect suits which are printed in the text of the ability? (e.g. Ca 6)

Yes.  That's the basic value of the attribute.

Quote

2) Does this affect suits which are added to Ca/Sh/Ml actions?

Yes.  That's a modifier to the attribute.

Quote

3) Does this affect suits which are added to duels arising from Ca/Sh/Ml actions?

No.  That's a modifier to the duel total, not the attribute.

Quote

4) Does this affect suits which are added to generic duels?

No.  That's a modifier to the duel total.

---

I think this is a good explanation as well:

On 2014/3/19 at 0:05 AM, Malharath said:

It says "associated with their stats", that means the printed stat, as a card or a stone doesn't affect the models stats. It is clear (to me), but there is probably a reason for keeping it different.

Actually, Hannah's would stop corner cases like, " I meet X requirement, so I gain Y suit to my stat". Counter-spell would only stop the printed suit, no additional suits gain via said example. See Risky Ventures on Misaki.

 

[Kobayashi]

@solkan
Just a follow up and since I'm not native in english and not sure if you have covered that already in your answer. Would she also remove the suits, if the Mi / Ca / Sh whatever would use for example the Df value (i.e. Df 4) would the  also get lost. I can't find a modell currently using it's own stats towards Mi / Ca / Sh, but that is not that there won't be any or there aren't any.

I hope this is not trollish...

[solkan]

27 minutes ago, Kobayashi said:

@solkan
Just a follow up and since I'm not native in english and not sure if you have covered that already in your answer. Would she also remove the suits, if the Mi / Ca / Sh whatever would use for example the Df value (i.e. Df 4) would the  also get lost. I can't find a modell currently using it's own stats towards Mi / Ca / Sh, but that is not that there won't be any or there aren't any.

I hope this is not trollish...

As far as I know, no such abilities exist.  But it would depend entirely on how the effect was written.  After all, I could imagine an effect which replaced parts of a Ca 6 with parts of a MI 10 action in a lot of different ways, and the specific details would change how that interacts with other effects.  For (hypothetical) example:

- If it replaced the whole attribute (turning the Ca into an MI), that would bypass the whole effect.

- If it replaced the suit, whether it bypassed Counterspell or Netherflux would depend on whether it "used the value/suit" or "replaced the printed value/suit".

So it would depend on the specific details.

 

[Kobayashi]

Okay... not as cut out as I wish it to be and I guess since there are many ??? to consider, I end the hypotehtical banter and thank you nonetheless for your effort

[Adran]

Kobayashi

I think the nearest Ability to that which you describe is Pandora and her ability to use Wp instead of Df. And if the Ability removed Df suits, it wouldn't remove them from her WP, as she is using her WP instead of her DF. She is not taking a df duel, but a wp duel (which for her is important as she can then fading memories if she wins). 

[Frugalbar]

Sorry to resurrect this old post, but how would Bishop's Adaptive ability be affected by Nether Fluctuations?  I recently had a Friekorps Librarian in melee with him. The argument was the ability says Bishop gets to allow the chosen suit to the final dual - not to the Ca, Sh or Ml stat.  So Nether Fluctuations didn't apply.

It seemed like a sound argument.

[Artiee]

2 hours ago, Frugalbar said:

Sorry to resurrect this old post, but how would Bishop's Adaptive ability be affected by Nether Fluctuations?  I recently had a Friekorps Librarian in melee with him. The argument was the ability says Bishop gets to allow the chosen suit to the final dual - not to the Ca, Sh or Ml stat.  So Nether Fluctuations didn't apply.

It seemed like a sound argument.

It is always best to create a new post than to necro a old post especially one that is over 2 years old.    This is a major sin on some forums btw.

But to answer your question.  Nether Fluctuations would ignore the on his Df stat.   He would still be able to use his adaptive during this activation.  And if he does happen to get attacked during his activation, he will get to include a if he chose the at the start of he activate for his Df trigger.