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What each faction feels like to me


D_acolyte

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So a few weeks ago someone mentioned that they thought the Brewmaster was not a gremlin master. To which I explained my view on why he is, this started be thinking about the feel of factions. To get this out of the way, this is most defiantly an opinion on my take on feel and fluff. I will try to avoid spoiler’s warnings.
I will talk about 2 things that strike me as feel for each faction’s ability and I will discussed my thoughts on fluff list.
Gremlins 1: I see gremlins as a high risk with hopefully high reward faction. This goes into their dumb luck triggers, the fact most pigs can charge as a 1 action, the amount craziness that can go on with there must trigger a trigger attacks.
Gremlins 2: To go along with the gremlins high risk is their ability to manage AP. Most gremlins seem to have a way of cheating there AP allotment, weather it is reckless, 1 action charges or out of turn activations such as the bushwacker boost their confidence ability.
So how does this line up with the Brewmaster. Amazingly well, you want to activate him early and stick him in a high risk area with drinking contest to drain your enemies AP by having them fail the duals and gain poison even if it heals them. The risk comes from what happens if they pass and what about the next turn.
Guild 1: Piece through superior firepower. So there is a high probability that you have heard the either the guild or gremlins are the best faction at dealing damage, well this is not so much about that but more over the feel of the guild faction as being one filled with range attacks. I do not know what the current number is but excluding masters in totems at the end of mark 1 there where a grand total of 3 models that did not have range attacks in the guild, a dog, a man with no hands and a big sword and board robot. I believe the number has doubled to six with the inclusion of the starter box, but what matters is not the exact number but the feeling this leaves on the faction. Range combat is the guild mainstay with various ways to improve them through triggers or other models.
Guild 2: this is a hard one as I was torn between 2 ideas but I decided to state that they guild tend to have very good all round models in there henchmen and masters. With the guild striking me less as the hunting of X faction I think it is important to point out how great they are with jack models, which would be jack of all trades and master of none. Another way would be multi-purpose models, such as Judge, Sidir and Ryle which are among the best combat models in the game because they are good at multiple ranges. I have seen more guild players run with no enforcers than any other faction often with them taking two or more henchmen because there henchmen are just that versatile on average.
Arcanists 1: Take the hit. This faction has a lot of armor. This helps to add to the feel of the faction as technicians and constructs. This might also be because the faction feels dominated by the MS&U. Count up the number of non-construct models, those models do not have armor, though they may have a way to reduce the damage anyway such as bullet proof or arcane shield. Some models even have hard to kill, in fact I think it has more hard to kill then most faction but do not quote me on that. There are even some triggers like mettle on mettle that drops the damage. The faction is very solid about dropping damage down and surviving with limited health.
Arcanists 2: Master dependent list. So this might be because I played them a lot in first ed but most of the time I feel that my master in the arcanist faction effects what I take more than most other factions. This helps with the fractured feel of the arcanist between there different orders, though some of that seems to be going away a bit with ice dancer and Scorpius. I personally would love to see an expansion on another named Order of Chimera or Cult of December character henchmen or master.
Reser 1: Attrition. Going through killing resers and there models is like a slow grind that takes forever because of all the hard to wound and high wound counts, for instance a Belle has 8 wd. Then you through in that most masters have some form of summoning to make the grind even longer. So so long to kill all the mooks.
Reser 2: Harmful Conditions. So this is like poison or giving of negative conditions to weaken you. From things like you cannot heal to making their attacks better vs one model or giving you a negative to your flips. I mean the list is large: Poison, Adversary, Paralyzed, No Escape… it is a long list. Some of these do not even do damage... IF SOMETHING DOES NO DAMAGE THEN BESURE NOT TO LET IT SUCCEED.
Neverborn 1: Bending of rules. This is not to be confused with how they were in first edition which is braking the rules. Neverborn find ways to remove aspects of the game that would be inconvenient, you know such as terrain, choices of activations, shooting into combat. For every rule in your rule book Neverborn has an equal and opposite counter to it…. Get over it. This makes them a very trick base faction which has a lot away around things, too much cover get flight or too little well then we can make it.
Neverborn 2: Brutality. So this is my favorite part of the Neverborn, speed + melee = death. There is no other faction that quite knows the power of speed and combat models more than the Neverborn. Why is this because sometimes the tricks do not work and you cannot finesse the brick wall so you just have to go through it. To help with this brutality they have models that even call enemies towards them.
Outcast 1: Extreme Oddity. So the best way I can group something into the Outcast faction is by saying this model does something that would just not normally fit in with the other factions. A good example of this is the void wretches, rats, or even the freikorps which own mechanics would be a little odd in other factions. This is even true with the masters where they are a little out of place with various factions, Jack Daw is not a Reser in his feel, Viks are not a guild or arcanist flavor, Levy is all together to himself though he could have been a dual faction arcanist reser but I think by himself in the outcast feels right. This also has an effect on what master’s work well with what models.
Outcast 2: Strong parts. The Outcast has a huge list of enforcers and a good size list of henchmen most of which are really good at what they do. This lends them to an elite feel but also a niche filling feel as you may need a model for X but only one or two such model fills it and it is a character model. They also have some very good minions that are I feel overly good, I am looking at you ronins.
Ten thunder 1: I Am Barrowing This. So I will admit that in first ed and to an extent in second I have a hard time thinking of the Ten Thunders as a faction because 6/7 of their masters are from other factions and can bring there favorite toys with them. Though I am not to happy about that as a faction identity and can not wait for more pure Ten Thunders to come out it does open the faction up for a feel that emphasizes odd combinations such as Sidir and Ototo synergizing to give slow and then do more damage.
Ten thunder 2: If you thought I was going to say that they are Asia then you are wrong, I will instead point out the amount of bonus flips they get through various means. There are many ways for the Ten Thunders to get bonus flips from extra focus from focus action, cheaper defensives, or recall training just to name a few. This leads to the less action to more effect feel.

Fluff lists: Warning this will sound like a rant but I will try and keep it sort.
I do not personally play them often but I respect those that do as long as they are truly playing fluff lists. Where if you ran Karies with all the MS&U Asset models I am all for it as a fluff list but once you through in the Mech Rider and try an claim being fluffy I start to have a problem.
Why, well it is not because the Mech Rider is that good but more over the fluff for the riders is that they randomly appear to help there faction. They do not owe the faction any loyalty and if you were to accurately portray it in your list you would do something that represent this randomization such as flip a card. This is just as I do not see a fluff reason for Nekima to be in Lilith list, one sister openly hates the other and would kill her if she could.
One thing that really got me out of the current edition of 40k is fluff abuse when it came to list creation and allies, yes by rules the Dark Angels and Space Wolves will work together but by fluff they would not help each other and probably not be in the same battle and defiantly not the same commander even if they are in the same war.
I will say this, there is one master that can always run the 3 of the riders if not all 4 and be a fluff list: Leveticus. If you want to know why then read his avatar story in Twisting Fate, it is worth the $7 on http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/133311/Malifaux--Twisting-Fates-Expansion--15
If you do not claim to play fluff list then this is not a problem for you.
I tend to find fluff list or one subtyped list as ones that have their own problems. This is because a single type of model will rarly cover everything you might want to do, it is similar to fitting a round peg in a square whole. Now some of them such as the Freikorps can work very well, so it really comes down to your master and how you want to limit yourself.
Note I do think there is a different between fluff and theme lists, a fluff list has something in the world that justifies it such as when Lady J and the Ortagas teamed up to go somewhere in Twisting Fate vs a theme list which tend to fit together because some shared commonality such as McMorning with Grimwell, orderlies, and nurses with the theme of medical staff. There is some overlap in-between the two.

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13 minutes ago, D_acolyte said:


Ten thunder 1: I Am Barrowing This. So I will admit that in first ed and to an extent in second I have a hard time thinking of the Ten Thunders as a faction because 6/7 of their masters are from other factions and can bring there favorite toys with them. Though I am not to happy about that as a faction identity and can not wait for more pure Ten Thunders to come out it does open the faction up for a feel that emphasizes odd combinations such as Sidir and Ototo synergizing to give slow and then do more damage.

 

There are other good example using models that can only be taken with infiltrator such as Master Queeg or Austringer and a Torakage. There is a lot of little synergies or neat tricks that can be done with this faction and the models that are dual factions or that you bring from another factions.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9.02.2016 г. at 9:48 PM, D_acolyte said:

Ten thunder 1: I Am Barrowing This. So I will admit that in first ed and to an extent in second I have a hard time thinking of the Ten Thunders as a faction because 6/7 of their masters are from other factions and can bring there favorite toys with them. Though I am not to happy about that as a faction identity and can not wait for more pure Ten Thunders to come out it does open the faction up for a feel that emphasizes odd combinations such as Sidir and Ototo synergizing to give slow and then do more damage.
Ten thunder 2: If you thought I was going to say that they are Asia then you are wrong, I will instead point out the amount of bonus flips they get through various means. There are many ways for the Ten Thunders to get bonus flips from extra focus from focus action, cheaper defensives, or recall training just to name a few. This leads to the less action to more effect feel.

I will go ahead and pretend you asked me rephrase that for you (because I really want to butt in and talk about my favorite faction):
Ten Thunders 1: Flexibility. Since they can borrow units from all other factions, this can lead to crazy and unexpected combinations, :P as well as multiple ways to go about solving a problem. Not to mention that many of the Wave 1 models are generalists.
Ten Thunders 2: Efficiency. The ability to do many things with extra flips or extra AP (in some cases) means that you could potentially get more out of a model in 10T then in most other factions, including mercenaries (image Lazarus pushed into Autofire position with Fast and Focus and able to (0) Focus once more, or Bishop with 4 AP doing two Flurries with +flips from Recalled Training). This might make the faction feel somewhat elitist some games - while bringing a horde of generalist (or not so much) minions in others. This however means that the models are often not as good compared to others in a vacuum, because they need to realize certain conditions to shine since the power level has to remain in check.
The masters in TT can play either the theme game, or the mixed game. If playing theme lists they count on synergies that exist withing the fluff and/or theme models and have a feel close to that of their original faction. If playing the mixed game they have access to a wide variety of tools and can easily surprise their opponents, throwing them off balance. Combining theme and variety models might work best, however - so that you have synergies, but also bring the tools to cover other needs you have or weaknesses inherent to the thematic playstyle.

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I would be careful about presenting the guild as the best shooters since both outcasts and ten thunders can easily gain ranged advantage due to their amazing snipers and some very brutal enforcers. I would push more for the jack of all trades angle. Their real uniqueness is that they have very few dedicated schemers and need to scheme with models designed for other jobs (hence jack of all trades). Most other factions can just bring a scheme-dedicated 4-5 ss model that will do schemes better than anything the guild can bring. I also feel that the guild is very master-centric since different masters make the same models perform radically different stuff. Not sure how to phrase that but basically other factions you can go single master but in guild you can probably go with a similar list and change the master instead. I do agree on henchmen being very important for the faction.

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

 Most other factions can just bring a scheme-dedicated 4-5 ss model that will do schemes better than anything the guild can bring. 

That surprises me.

I'd put Gupps and Terror tots above the watcher in the 4 ss category, but think its about equal to the void wretch, Winged plague and Cruligan. 

I do agree with the Master/interchangeable list. 

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

That surprises me.

I'd put Gupps and Terror tots above the watcher in the 4 ss category, but think its about equal to the void wretch, Winged plague and Cruligan. 

The problem I have with watchers is that they can never disengage because they have low defence and no place ability. The low defense is also a huge liability compared to the df 6 scheme runners. The fact that they can't defend themselves at all when engaged means they need a lot of babysitting. The crooligans place thing makes them a lot better at most marker schemes since it makes a huge difference in distance moved over a couple of turns. It also interacts well with the condition-placing schemes. 

I agree that outcasts are in a similar tight spot though.

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5 hours ago, Eclipse said:

I will go ahead and pretend you asked me rephrase that for you (because I really want to butt in and talk about my favorite faction):
Ten Thunders 1: Flexibility. Since they can borrow units from all other factions, this can lead to crazy and unexpected combinations, :P as well as multiple ways to go about solving a problem. Not to mention that many of the Wave 1 models are generalists.
Ten Thunders 2: Efficiency. The ability to do many things with extra flips or extra AP (in some cases) means that you could potentially get more out of a model in 10T then in most other factions, including mercenaries (image Lazarus pushed into Autofire position with Fast and Focus and able to (0) Focus once more, or Bishop with 4 AP doing two Flurries with +flips from Recalled Training). This might make the faction feel somewhat elitist some games - while bringing a horde of generalist (or not so much) minions in others. This however means that the models are often not as good compared to others in a vacuum, because they need to realize certain conditions to shine since the power level has to remain in check.
The masters in TT can play either the theme game, or the mixed game. If playing theme lists they count on synergies that exist withing the fluff and/or theme models and have a feel close to that of their original faction. If playing the mixed game they have access to a wide variety of tools and can easily surprise their opponents, throwing them off balance. Combining theme and variety models might work best, however - so that you have synergies, but also bring the tools to cover other needs you have or weaknesses inherent to the thematic playstyle.

No did not want a rephrasing, after all this is based on my opinion and part of that is how I choose to phrase things. By stating that you will pretend that I ask for it to be rephrased is actually either rude or egotistical or both. I am fine with people stating what they see of there factions or even other factions, just do not go putting words in another persons mouth which "I will go ahead and pretend you asked me rephrase that for you" does.

As for flexibility, I tend to put that more with the Outcasts because in there own faction they have a lot of models that fill a variety of roles where as the fact the 10 Thunders take from other faction can lead to strange tricks or just play the other faction. Flexibility comes from having the ability to always fill x number of roles where as the 10 Thunders tricks come in when you have models that are often not thought about working together either because of the master or not having some synergy not thought about. This is not flexibility but unexpected synergy.

Efficiency and increasing the number of cards flip are not the same. People may think that it is but efficiency is the ability to achieve a desired outcome in the minimum of resources so where increasing your flips with focus or recall training may sound efficient it is not necessarily. When compared to other factions and the verity of roles people could easily make the argument that it is no more efficient then them. For instance, who is more effective a model that focus so you can cheat in to do 4 damage or a model that has a minimum of 4 damage, the answer is the model that has a minimum 4. Now if you game style is based around 1 card fishing or 2 always wanting to cheat then the bonus cards the Ten Thunders use

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 2:48 PM, D_acolyte said:

Guild 1: Piece through superior firepower. So there is a high probability that you have heard the either the guild or gremlins are the best faction at dealing damage, well this is not so much about that but more over the feel of the guild faction as being one filled with range attacks. I do not know what the current number is but excluding masters in totems at the end of mark 1 there where a grand total of 3 models that did not have range attacks in the guild, a dog, a man with no hands and a big sword and board robot. I believe the number has doubled to six with the inclusion of the starter box, but what matters is not the exact number but the feeling this leaves on the faction. Range combat is the guild mainstay with various ways to improve them through triggers or other models.
 

 

5 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I would be careful about presenting the guild as the best shooters since both outcasts and ten thunders can easily gain ranged advantage due to their amazing snipers and some very brutal enforcers. I would push more for the jack of all trades angle. Their real uniqueness is that they have very few dedicated schemers and need to scheme with models designed for other jobs (hence jack of all trades). Most other factions can just bring a scheme-dedicated 4-5 ss model that will do schemes better than anything the guild can bring. I also feel that the guild is very master-centric since different masters make the same models perform radically different stuff. Not sure how to phrase that but basically other factions you can go single master but in guild you can probably go with a similar list and change the master instead. I do agree on henchmen being very important for the faction.

Looking at these side by side, I believe I stated I gave the Guild a firepower base feel because of the number of projectile weapons in there crew roster not how good they are.

 

As for how to say a master that does not care about there crew, I call that a Crew Independent Master (McCabb) vs a Crew Dependent Master (C. Hoffman). I tend to see the Arcanists as the master centric faction as most of there masters are Crew Dependent Masters. 

I feel your trying to get at something else. I think your trying to talk about how a master interacts with a given crew vs where a master basically decides on you crew to make him run well. I feel that as a most part Guild Masters tend to be mostly Crew Independent Master: the majority of my crew is not determined/highly restrictive because of my master performance. Now the synergistic masters (McCabe and Lucius) may have a way they like to lean but it is not needed and they both make the force perform vastly differently while not being highly restrictive. Am I on the right track at what your trying to get at?

The reason why this feel does not radiate through out the faction I believe is because most of the Guild Masters tend to be less synergistically focus.

Note I tend to associate Crew Dependent Master with a limiting subtype such as Constructs, Puppets, Showgirls, Models with Frozen Heart or in the Arcanists case Living models. Minions in most cases are not that limiting as factions tend to have a good variety of minions covering the range of roles.

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So I am hoping to do another post over the weekend, the goal is to get back to talking about Revs of the Crew with a focus on how to stall out the enemy crew, control focus with a  little on support. Then next month I was planning on doing how I categorize masters because it can get complicated and I have seen most of them and this is about how to dissect what they do.

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3 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

 

I feel your trying to get at something else. I think your trying to talk about how a master interacts with a given crew vs where a master basically decides on you crew to make him run well. I feel that as a most part Guild Masters tend to be mostly Crew Independent Master: the majority of my crew is not determined/highly restrictive because of my master performance. Now the synergistic masters (McCabe and Lucius) may have a way they like to lean but it is not needed and they both make the force perform vastly differently while not being highly restrictive. Am I on the right track at what your trying to get at?

The reason why this feel does not radiate through out the faction I believe is because most of the Guild Masters tend to be less synergistically focus.

Note I tend to associate Crew Dependent Master with a limiting subtype such as Constructs, Puppets, Showgirls, Models with Frozen Heart or in the Arcanists case Living models. Minions in most cases are not that limiting as factions tend to have a good variety of minions covering the range of roles.

You are right, you never really said they're the strongest ranged faction, just have the most attacks. I think it was the part about "superior firepower" which gives that impression.

I think we are on the same track with our feel of the guild. In some factions the masters use radically different models but in guild a lot of the masters have shared favourite models. It will be interesting to see you describe the rev of the different factions, I liked your last post on the topic.

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5 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

No did not want a rephrasing, after all this is based on my opinion and part of that is how I choose to phrase things. By stating that you will pretend that I ask for it to be rephrased is actually either rude or egotistical or both. I am fine with people stating what they see of there factions or even other factions, just do not go putting words in another persons mouth which "I will go ahead and pretend you asked me rephrase that for you" does.

Well, I did mean to say this is my opinion, I just tried to be a smartass about it and so it came off too rude. Apologies :)

6 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

For instance, who is more effective a model that focus so you can cheat in to do 4 damage or a model that has a minimum of 4 damage, the answer is the model that has a minimum 4. Now if you game style is based around 1 card fishing or 2 always wanting to cheat then the bonus cards the Ten Thunders use

What you say is true in a vacuum: Howard Langston for example is more efficient than, say, a Ten Thunders Archer. He is however more expensive as well and so should rightfully be about twice as effective with his attacks as a damage dealer specialist (well, maybe not that good).

-non-topic related musings about efficiency that I had to get out of my system-
So this got me thinking about individual and sum crew efficiency although I have sidetracked from the topic with this. Now bear with me: I believe that a model's efficiency can be attributed to the correlation of cost - role fulfillment - rules - terrain compatibility (let's say 'R') of the model. This is logical as the more expensive a model is, the model it should be able to do and/or the less hindered when doing it. This can be more damage, more survivability, or simple more special rules and more roles the model can potentially fulfill. 
The potential efficiency of the crew is something like (net crew efficiency 'X' as a sum of 'R' in the crew).(ratio of upscaling synergy + fulfillment of required roles as per strategy/schemes = total 'Y')/(enemy X.Y = 'Z'). So if you manage to tie Howard Langston in melee with a Watcher in a spot where two Guild Rifleman will be able to shoot Howard down you can say you have been more efficient than your opponent, right? 
-end of musings-

6 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

Note I tend to associate Crew Dependent Master with a limiting subtype such as Constructs, Puppets, Showgirls, Models with Frozen Heart or in the Arcanists case Living models. Minions in most cases are not that limiting as factions tend to have a good variety of minions covering the range of roles.

This is an interesting view. I always thought Crew Dependent Masters are those that rely on their crew as extensions of themselves, as extra limbs if you will. For example, Lucuis and his reliance on having minions to command; or Brewmaster not dealing direct damage and spending his time tying up/piping down enemy models.
I'm looking forward to reading more from you - especially about how you would categorize Masters. Seeing how things look from other (and more experienced) people's perspective is quite useful.

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3 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

Well, I did mean to say this is my opinion, I just tried to be a smartass about it and so it came off too rude. Apologies :)

Apologies excepted.

4 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

 

-non-topic related musings about efficiency that I had to get out of my system-
So this got me thinking about individual and sum crew efficiency although I have sidetracked from the topic with this. Now bear with me: I believe that a model's efficiency can be attributed to the correlation of cost - role fulfillment - rules - terrain compatibility (let's say 'R') of the model. This is logical as the more expensive a model is, the model it should be able to do and/or the less hindered when doing it. This can be more damage, more survivability, or simple more special rules and more roles the model can potentially fulfill. 
The potential efficiency of the crew is something like (net crew efficiency 'X' as a sum of 'R' in the crew).(ratio of upscaling synergy + fulfillment of required roles as per strategy/schemes = total 'Y')/(enemy X.Y = 'Z'). So if you manage to tie Howard Langston in melee with a Watcher in a spot where two Guild Rifleman will be able to shoot Howard down you can say you have been more efficient than your opponent, right? 
-end of musings-

This is one of many way to figure out if a model is worth X but it makes it difficult on models that are multi focus and the best way to work it out is through trial and error. Which is the fun part of the game, experimentation.

6 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

This is an interesting view. I always thought Crew Dependent Masters are those that rely on their crew as extensions of themselves, as extra limbs if you will. For example, Lucuis and his reliance on having minions to command; or Brewmaster not dealing direct damage and spending his time tying up/piping down enemy models.
I'm looking forward to reading more from you - especially about how you would categorize Masters. Seeing how things look from other (and more experienced) people's perspective is quite useful.

Trust me, I am dreading and relishing the idea of doing a topic on masters, how I read them, and what I think of them. I may not hit all of them but I will defiantly use multiple "types", styles and faction in my post on it and try to touch on most of them. The dual faction ones may be overly complicated, Example: Lynch is one thing in the Neverborn yet really can go a different way with 10 Thunders. Most masters are defined by the sum of there parts and not individual part which make the possibility explode.

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