Gaining Grounds 2016 and the Neverborn

[Mxbedlam]

Hey guys! We have a whole boat load of new schemes to accomplish, and since Neverborn holds a pretty decent supply of scheme runners, where do we stand in the new Gaining Grounds? Which models increased in value and who may have dropped?

Initial thoughts really seem to me that the only one who's significantly effected is Dreamer. Neutralize in the pool hurts him by handing at least 2 free VP to your opponent if Chompy has to show up. Luckily its not flipped on a suit, so won't be seen as often as assassinate (This is being pretty hotly debated elsewhere so lets not dwell on it).  Hunting Party on a crow seems dangerous for Neverborn in general. We have a lot of squishy minions and peons out there and since its suited we will probably see it a lot. Any plans for mitigating this scheme? To me it seems you have to control who their enforcer and henchmen models have access to.

On the other hand, Dreamer's ability to hand out fast makes Catch and Release much easier to remove and deny your opponent points. 

Love to hear your thoughts.

 

[santaclaws01]

Neverborn also has one of the most durable minions, the Illuminated, so Hunting Party won't be too much of an issue in terms of giving out points, and we have plenty of beaters to rack up points as well.

Neutralize the Leader won't be too much of an issue. Summoning Dreamer can just go a buffing route with Empty Night. Chompy Dreamer will have to play at a 2 point disadvantage though, but Chompy can kill enemy leaders too, and with out the before turn 5 restriction of assassinate, has a better chance of getting 3vp on it than your opponent does of getting 3vp from it on you.

[D_acolyte]

My summoning Dreamer becomes Chompy about once every 4 games so I am not to worried about neutralize commander but I think a summoning Dreamer will be mean in Hunting Party because he can summon enforcers.

For the most part I do not feel that the faction is harmed by the GG schemes, though there are some I would not take but that because I do not like them in general.

that list:

Set Up

Catch And Release

Occupy Their Turf

Public Demonstration

Most of these are because I feel they require a type of build I am not fond of.

[PeregrineFalcon]

A few things, NtL will come up rarely so I don't think its a big deal. Also, if it does just don't bury dreamer, and even better drop in a Scion of Black Blood who can remove his Waking. I mean its totally not efficient (cause have to chuck two cards, and you're hiring a SoBB just for this one 'cute' ability), but it could be a way for people who just want to play Dreamer to add a model that can help mitigate the chance of giving up points on NtL.

I think Dreamer (summoner variant has a slight edge over shooty here) is a champ at Occupy Their Turf. He can easily speed three Insidious Madness across the board in a single turn, jeez he could even do it turn 1 with the right hand. 

As far as everything else in GG16, I think that Illuminated are some of the best in the new set. I would suggest maybe a better way to 'discuss' this topic is to generate a scheme pool and let people discuss what they would take (maybe in a different thread, or multiple). Talking about each scheme alone is good and useful, but I think its the combination of the different schemes in some pools that really start to stress the question as to "what got better and what got worse". 

[lusciousmccabe]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

A few things, NtL will come up rarely so I don't think its a big deal. Also, if it does just don't bury dreamer, and even better drop in a Scion of Black Blood who can remove his Waking. I mean its totally not efficient (cause have to chuck two cards, and you're hiring a SoBB just for this one 'cute' ability), but it could be a way for people who just want to play Dreamer to add a model that can help mitigate the chance of giving up points on NtL.

Well, it'll come up as often as any other non-suited scheme so it's just as worth discussing in that regard. However, I do think it's kind of irrelevant since Lord Chompy Bits is an attractive desk warmer this edition 

It would have been nice if they'd been able to include a scheme that made the Chompy side of Dreamer more viable, but I think the whole Waking mechanic was flawed enough from the get-go that it's not such an easy fix.

[tomjoad]

To touch on a few schemes I've played so far:

I think Leave Your Mark is fairly easy. A silurid or tot can get into the far corner pretty quick and can start racking up points.

The best way I've found to score counteract Hunting Party is to score 3 points for it; between Teddy, Nekima, Juju, doppleganger, and the Hooded Rider, this is a strong possibility.

I got 3 points yesterday for Mark for Death by walking Pandora into a clump of enemies, then they took a few hits from Fears Given Form, then next turn she activated, Marked 3 of them, and then they all died...this won't be a common scenario, but it WAS pretty great.

Convict Labor is way harder than I thought it would be; I can't foresee picking this one very often. It's just so easy to neutralize.

I agree with the majority on Neutralize the Commander v Dreamer. He rarely HAS to bury, and I rarely let him. The only game I've played with this scheme my opponent chose it and got 0 points of Dreamer for it. This didn't take any extra care from me; I maybe just cast Empty Night instead of summoning one more time than I would have otherwise.

I so rarely take upgrades that Show of Force looks daunting to me. It hasn't come up in any of my games yet, but I predict that I'll have to really think about how to handle it when it does.

[lusciousmccabe]

Show of Force seems like it might be something of a nuisance in Interference, although that isn't a problem specific to Neverborn. 

If you want to score it Candy and Huggy seem like reasonable options. They can take Fears Given Form and another Upgrade to tangle with whatever your opponent sends into the middle. If nothing comes in to contest the scheme you still have a good bit of room to play with the 3" melee and ranged attacks to fall back on. It also makes Hans a pretty cool choice as a Mercenary since he can make it easier for you, or deter your opponent from taking it altogether. 

Also Tannen and Graves can contribute two upgrades while making the central 6" an unpleasant place to be and tossing people out of it.

I'm actually pretty happy about Show of Force in Neverborn, but I tend to kit out everything with upgrades anyway. It's nice to have a good selection of generic upgrades that aren't discarded mid game. It means you can pretty easily kit out models for the scheme without changing your list much or spending the stones for dedicated scheme runners. 

I also kind of like that it's the only scheme where your competing directly with your opponent for points, even if it is the most ungodly wall of text I've seen in a while. 

[D_acolyte]

I will be going to a tournament this weekend playing as Neverborn and I will tell you what I think after it.

[D_acolyte]

So I got 4 GG16 games in this weekend. 1 pick up and 3 in a tournament. Out of those 4 games I lost 1 and played Dreamer for 3 and Pandora for 1.

My thoughts after this is that if you are trying to get 10 points then it is harder and rarer then it was before. Malifaux tournaments have a higher number of upsets then most others for instance I got 4 out of 9, the best player I know got 5 and a new player got 3.

One game, the black joker loved Pandora and showed it by showing up when ever she did her zero action.

The schemes I played where: Show of Force, Hunting Party, Neutralize The Leader, Detonate the Charges, and Inspection.

I did not play dreamer with Neutralize The Leader not because of the scheme but because I wend vs another never born. Otherwise the schemes that actually affected my build was: Show of Force (a lot), Hunting Party (a little), Inspection (a lot).

I am often enforcer and henchmen heavy so hunting party is almost a no brainer scheme for me. I took an upgrade on each person that could in show of force and took Iggy as a cheap carrier for one. In inspection I took 2 wicked dolls because they are cheep and they count for it, which cause my opponent to scratch his head some.

My area of week play involves neverborn vs neverborn games.

[Joel]

Increased in value:

cherub - now certainly displaces pmagic from Lilith crews

sorrows and depleted - both much more useful across multiple schemes

vasilisa - model placement just became more valuable, as did OOAAP

 

[orkdork]

21 hours ago, Joel said:

Increased in value:

cherub - now certainly displaces pmagic from Lilith crews

sorrows and depleted - both much more useful across multiple schemes

vasilisa - model placement just became more valuable, as did OOAAP

 

Elaborate! Give us your brains

[Sybarite]

Cherub helps with those 2ap interacts fot exhaust right?

[Joel]

Cherub helps with the 2 interacts yes, but also hands out slow and can push enemy models towards or away from positions on the board to assist scoring. In many scheme pools, this can be where ALL your VP come from.

sorrows allow a turn 1 convict labour setup - even if you don't take the scheme, you can bluff it perfectly without even being AP inefficient - depleted get better with the change to exhaust from cursed object, and against the new distract too. Their push ability can be worth more now as well.

vasilisa adds to this with her obey and twist strings, as well as her friend to talk to upgrade. She's always been seen as a bit expensive, but the scheme pools now make her particular mix of abilities more appealing

[Mxbedlam]

So my particular thoughts on GG16 is that you should always plan for your 10 points, but you should also look to prevent at least one scoring opportunity for your opponent. As you don't always know what your opponent is setting themselves up to do anymore with the non revealed schemes, the sure bet is to stop the strategy. Some schemes seem pretty telegraphed (Show of Force if they load up with Upgrades, If they are pushing models far into your back field they are going for Occupy, if they have two models way over on the side they are probably doing Inspection) however the sure bet you know they are trying to score on is the strategy. So I feel like models that help deny the particular strategy are high value. Any models that push people out of position are big since almost all the strategies in GG16 have to do somewhat with positioning (excluding Collect the Bounty). Therefore Lilitu, Beckoners, Cherub, Kade, Mr Graves, Bunraku, Waldgiests and the Emissary all seem solid picks for kicking people around the board or denying movement.

[Joel]

Going for your 10 and denying opponents is nothing new though. The most fundamental change is the bluffing game since no schemes are revealed pre-game. This allows you to telegraph false intent to your opponent through crew design and deployment.

[lusciousmccabe]

Show of Force is a bit of an odd one since you can't both score it on the same turn (IIRC). If you decide to bluff it with a few upgraded models and your opponent doesn't have many you might as well take it, unless there's absolutely no way you can dedicate those models to the centre bubble. That way if your opponent chooses Show of Force you're denying them points while scoring yourself and if not they'll have a hard time denying you.

[Sybarite]

Dont both score if you have the same amount of upgrades in the bubble?

[sharpobjects]

27 minutes ago, Sybarite said:

Dont both score if you have the same amount of upgrades in the bubble?

 

Yes, both players score on a tie.

GG2016 Show of Force;

If this Crew has at least one qualifying Upgrade and has a number of qualifying Upgrades equal to or exceeding the opposing Crew’s number of qualifying Upgrades, this crew scores 1VP.

[lusciousmccabe]

Good catch. It's still more directly competitive than most schemes though.

[orkdork]

On 2/12/2016 at 3:52 PM, Joel said:

Cherub helps with the 2 interacts yes, but also hands out slow and can push enemy models towards or away from positions on the board to assist scoring. In many scheme pools, this can be where ALL your VP come from.

I've been mulling this for a while. I haven't yet got in a Cherub game under the new schemes, but I'm still not certain I want to give up my 2nd rush of magic.

Part of it is how having a stronger control hand sort of "snowballs", where your opponent ends up losing by 1 time and time again.

Another bit is how Pukey can often be a VP by himself. It's really nice to have that flexibility to "fill in" for a marker once per game. Will the Cherub's push really deny / gain more than 1 VP in a game? Tangle Shadows and Pukey are such a nice combo.

So I'm left guessing that it will always "depend". How much will the control hand matter? Will I need that extra marker VP from pukey? Will Cherub have clear shots for pushing enemies off of VPs?

Definitely need to play around with it some more!

[Adran]

The primordial magics ability to be a scheme marker is much weakened in the new schemes that score on a turn by turn basis.  You are most likely to need him to score earlier in the game, which will kill him, removing his rush of magic.

And also he is not likely to be 2 VP any more, giving you the second [Breakthrough/Protect Territory/Plant Evidence/Power ritual] on the revealed scheme. 

The Cherub was most useful (for me) on making safe (2) interacts as (1), and in the old rules that was pretty much only Stake a claim. Now it also works well with exhaustion.