Izamu or Dawn Serpent?

[Gennosuke]

Hi all!

So, I've this question for you all: Considering only Strat, Schemes, table, and enemy faction, when would you take Dawn Serpent over Izamu? Of course given you would only bring one 10SS model (except maybe the emissary).

I know Dawn Serpent works fantastically with McCabe, and Izamu is great with Yan Lo's Relicary, but this question is disregarding what master are you running. You see, I only play Misaki (yeah, I know that's not how Malifaux works, but it's my kind of thing), and niether she gives them any pluses, nor they help her in any special way, so no consideration in that kind of synergies. Only Strat, Schemes, enemy Faction, and table.

As far as I can see, main benefits of the Serpent over Izamu it's that the former brings some (nice) ranged attack, and has an excellent mobility. But apart from that, I think Izamu would work better in most settings, except maybe in a table dense with terrain and a scheme pool marker heavy. Just the fact that Izamu can carry Recalled Training makes me prefer him... Sure, the Dawn Serpent may benefit greatly from Toshiro, but equally (kind of) may Izamu benefit from the emissary.

But that's just my opinion, and it could be (surely is) influenced by my lack of experience playing the Serpent. So, what do you think? What would you make choose Dawn Serpent over Izamu, ignoring what master are you bringing?

Thanks all for your input!

[Mewens]

In my meta, I'd strongly consider Dawn Serpent against Gremlins; the blast damage is clutch when you're staring down a half-dozen mooks with 2 wounds left. Being able to nail soft support pieces – Slop Hauler, anyone? – is also invaluable. While I haven't had a chance to test the match-up yet, Dawn Serpent also seems promising against my local Outcasts (melting Waifs while blasting anchors and ignoring Vik's Df 6 are both tempting).

In Strats, Reconnoiter favors DS. I'd also hesitate to bring Izamu vs. Cursed Object and Distract; once he gets stuck in, he's probably not going to see a turn outside of combat.

[Tokapondora]

The Dawn Serpent is incredibly mobile and is basically used to keep moving around the field hurting things along the way. Izamu is something you place in a key position and anything that comes in his range gets beaten to a pulp. You can't just take masters out of the equation though. Even Misaki, though having little direct synergy with any units, still benefits from units that augment her playstyle. I'd say Id slightly prefer the Dawn Serpent for her simply because he's able to keep up with Misaki, though if you have say Sensei Yu you could just fly Izamu in after her to lay in some more hurt. Unless you have no other ranged units, in which case you might be better off with the Dawn Serpent. It all depends on your crew's build (which revolves around your master). Overal I'm slightly more of a fan of Izamu simply because he is seen as a bigger threat by my meta, which with just a bit of healing allows him to occupy a large amount of your opponent's units.

[Bumpasses]

16 hours ago, Gennosuke said:

I know Dawn Serpent works fantastically with McCabe, and Izamu is great with Yan Lo's Relicary, but this question is disregarding what master are you running. You see, I only play Misaki (yeah, I know that's not how Malifaux works, but it's my kind of thing), and neither she gives them any pluses, nor they help her in any special way, so no consideration in that kind of synergies. Only Strat, Schemes, enemy Faction, and table.

 

Use Misakis Downburst on your own models.

If you only have a few low cards to cheat, then choose whom you want to push and save those cards.

I won my last tourney with Misaki pushing her crew via Downburst on herself. Its an ability I rarely see people talk about, but I find is key to how I play her.

I use it offensively as well, but have had more fun pushing my toys up the board.

 

As far as Izamu or Dawn Serpent thats a tough call, in my meta whenever the Drake hits the table he becomes the first target. My opponents have learned to fear the blast damage she can dish out. But its easy to surprise people with Misakis Downburst. I would try the Drake first, use turn 1 to set up your models leaving the Drake by Misaki, wait until he bunches up some models, then push the Drake via Downburst into range of that group and burn em out!

Or you could use them both and just have minions fill the rest.

I have another tourney coming up and im adding Yu to the miks, alot of movement shenanigans im going to abuse.

 

-Bump

[Gennosuke]

Thank you all for your four you comments and impressions. I guess I should try the Serpent more often, the thing I most like about it it's its mobility, wich could really would work better than Izamu if the schemes come along.

15 hours ago, Mewens said:

In my meta, I'd strongly consider Dawn Serpent against Gremlins; the blast damage is clutch when you're staring down a half-dozen mooks with 2 wounds left. Being able to nail soft support pieces – Slop Hauler, anyone? – is also invaluable. While I haven't had a chance to test the match-up yet, Dawn Serpent also seems promising against my local Outcasts (melting Waifs while blasting anchors and ignoring Vik's Df 6 are both tempting).

In Strats, Reconnoiter favors DS. I'd also hesitate to bring Izamu vs. Cursed Object and Distract; once he gets stuck in, he's probably not going to see a turn outside of combat.

Didn't consider any of this, thank you!! Still, against gremlins I find too much things I already want to take: Samurai, Yin, Ama...

 

11 minutes ago, Bumpasses said:

Use Misakis Downburst on your own models.

If you only have a few low cards to cheat, then choose whom you want to push and save those cards.

I won my last tourney with Misaki pushing her crew via Downburst on herself. Its an ability I rarely see people talk about, but I find is key to how I play her.

Thanks for the idea, but I can hardly see this working for me. Usually is the other way around, other models push Misaki so she can start murderizing first turn, either with Oiran, Lust, Mr Graves... (I stopped using Sensei Yu afeter too many frown faces xD). Spending cards and Misakis's APs to move other models (and not even freely), and compromising my deployment hoping for a bad hand, while keeping Misaki still doesn't sound too good for me :/ Anyway, never tried it, so I should give it try in the next future

 

[BigHammer]

The Jorogumo from wave 3 are another option; they're tough and killy, and minions, so McCabe can make the most of them. With a couple of cheap henchmen (Yamaziko for Smoke & Shadows caddy/charge protection/additional Ml damage, and Queeg, also wave 3, for extra pushes/additional (0) actions), they become very, very dangerous models indeed, capable of teleporting across the table and dealing out a ridiculous number of attacks in a single turn (the extreme example would be that one can get three attacks per activation - two with their Glaive, one with their teeth - get two activations with the BoS, then get another three (0) attacks from a Queeg that is Nimble, assuming they pass their horror duels *coughpromisescough*, for a total of nine attacks).

They also come in at a stone cheaper than either of the two you mention.

[lusciousmccabe]

Queeg's ability only works once per turn because you become immune to the Horror Duel after passing it. Still a cool interaction.

[Gennosuke]

3 hours ago, BigHammer said:

The Jorogumo from wave 3 are another option; they're tough and killy, and minions, so McCabe can make the most of them. With a couple of cheap henchmen (Yamaziko for Smoke & Shadows caddy/charge protection/additional Ml damage, and Queeg, also wave 3, for extra pushes/additional (0) actions), they become very, very dangerous models indeed, capable of teleporting across the table and dealing out a ridiculous number of attacks in a single turn (the extreme example would be that one can get three attacks per activation - two with their Glaive, one with their teeth - get two activations with the BoS, then get another three (0) attacks from a Queeg that is Nimble, assuming they pass their horror duels *coughpromisescough*, for a total of nine attacks).

The idea was to bring one of them with Misaki, my bad for not making that clearer, but thanks anyway.

About the Jorogumo, I find them interesting, but still beaten by Izamu, except maybe with Smoke&Shadows. But that usually means bringing Yamaziko, and I find her quite double-edge, the crone may be extremely good for her cost aginst some crews, but rather useless against others, so I end taking her only when I know I'm facing a master or crew against which Yamaziko would work well. In other words, I usually don't take Yamaziko, and therefore not taking S&S

[BigHammer]

Ah, well if you're after a beatstick model to go alongside Misaki, I'd personally pick Izamu from the two of them. He's more reliable, a Melee Expert, Ruthless and an Enforcer, allowing him to take an upgrade (Recalled Training is always a good bet for hard-hitting models like him). Misaki doesn't bring much to her crew other than being killy herself, so models that can do their job without much support from their master work well. The Dawn Serpent is good, but its synergies with masters like McCabe and Shenlong are what make it truly great.

[BigHammer]

25 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Queeg's ability only works once per turn because you become immune to the Horror Duel after passing it. Still a cool interaction.

While I wasn't sure if that was a correct interpretation or not (was this a thing with Lucius? I'm unfamiliar with how that one works for him), I realised that it's moot; no model may take more than one (0) action per activation anyway. So it's a limit of seven attacks in a turn, I guess. Still not terrible

[Ludvig]

48 minutes ago, BigHammer said:

While I wasn't sure if that was a correct interpretation or not (was this a thing with Lucius? I'm unfamiliar with how that one works for him), I realised that it's moot; no model may take more than one (0) action per activation anyway. So it's a limit of seven attacks in a turn, I guess. Still not terrible

The same limitations apply to Lucius.

[Patzer]

I don't like Dawn Serpent outside of McCabe crews. Without the latter's buffs, it has never performed enough for me. It is a solid tank against crews with a lot of ca actions, but that is hard to know in advance. 

[ArcticPangolin]

19 hours ago, Patzer said:

I don't like Dawn Serpent outside of McCabe crews. Without the latter's buffs, it has never performed enough for me. It is a solid tank against crews with a lot of ca actions, but that is hard to know in advance. 

Not even with Brewmaster?

[Eclipse]

Dawn Serpent is amazing. I like to use it in tandem with another big mover and shaker, like Hungering Darkness or Ama no Zako. Scores points like no tomorrow. Also very useful in Make them Suffer and Murder Protege if it is the unit with the greatest cost - after all, this dragon is quite slippery. Izamu on the other hand I find rather cumbersome and needing of support to get where needed before meeting an untimely demise. This might be my meta, though - a lot of Ignore Armor, extra attack triggers, Pandora shredding it up... I feel like I need McGabe, Shenlong or Sensei Yu, or at the very least Mr. Graves to make Izamu earn his points. The Dawn Serpent on other hand feels like... mmm... I'm flying away... from troubles in my life...
To add to others suggestions, the Shadow Emissary is another upcoming stellar model. It also allows some versatility for the crew as welll as a little Misaki-specific support. Ultimately though? Play with whatever you feel like. After all, this your style, your way on the highway