nep Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I've read that Malifaux, to the best of my knowledge is the most "balanced" miniatures game currently out in the market and was wondering if there are other competitive miniatures games that might be worth a look. Upon further perusal of tournament reports I commonly see cookie cutter builds that make it to the top which I personally frown upon; and this happens in many systems. Now I've played my share of different games but can't really say I played a lot hence I was wondering people's opinion/recommendations on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 What's a cookie cutter build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nep Posted December 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) What's a cookie cutter build?A list players use because it is most optimal in getting victories... so most players field them.Lets say in GameX's most competitive list uses 3 copies of miniature A and 3 copies of miniature B, so in a tournament you would prolly face that list a lot and/or use the same list. Edited December 12, 2015 by nep grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I haven't really played any other minis games, other than Car Wars as a kid in the 80s, and one demo of Krosmaster. So I'm not sure.I don't think there's a cookie-cutter list that wins tournaments. Crew selection definitely matters, and you can get an advantage by copying the list of someone who's been successful, but strategy during play matters a lot too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nep Posted December 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Well there is this miniatures game set in a grim dark future where in every edition there always seem to be a "favorite" faction/s where the rules and synergy of an army are too good hence most competitive players flock to that faction, tactics and strategy goes second when you have game rules working in your favour. I like to play competitive but if in order to be competitive I need to play the current edition's flavour, competitive play become boring as you come up against 3-4 list.Since it's the season to have extra expendable resources I was looking at other games (but Malifaux still tops my list) to purchase. I found an old game whose sci-fi brand has a movie coming out before Christmas. Their skirmish game... reminisce of a dungeon crawl board game has 2 competitive list to the best of my knowledge. Looking back at another franchise of the same brand but set in space combat, there is only a few list that are at par to be played competitively which to my opinion would easily get bland.Maybe its the variety in Malifaux that I like, where you can go in-theme and not get that handicapped... maybe I just got tired of seeing the same armies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breng77 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 My experience in Malifaux is that I don't see cookie cutter builds, even players with the same master will show some variety. Now there are some models that you will commonly see, but really not that many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 A lot of miniature games are well balanced. WH40k is not a good reference, for the reasons you stated. Infinity or WM/H are well-balanced games, for example.The thing Malifaux does well balance-wise is not the good balance per faction - others have that down, too. Malifaux is well-balanced per Master, to a level that there are very few Masters above the curve, and very few below it. Most models are playable competitively, net listing is a bad idea in general, and skill trumps all.Not sure if there are other games that can say that of themselves. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nep Posted December 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 A lot of miniature games are well balanced. WH40k is not a good reference, for the reasons you stated. Infinity or WM/H are well-balanced games, for example.Interesting. Some time ago I wanted to try WM but a comic derailed my interests; also interesting that I found it after all these years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderwiggin Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I dunno, I didn't find Warmachine that bad. I entered a tourney at the request of a friend after playing only two games. I placed fourth out of twelve. Most of the factions seemed decent.All-in-all Mali just holds so much more appeal to me. Not to mention the amount of armies/crews I now have...Anyway, the most balanced miniature games I've played would probably be Necromunda or Battlefleet Gothic aside from Malifaux. The old specialist games were great things of fun and even if there was a loss, the next game could reverse your fortunes in an instant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 A lot of miniature games are well balanced. WH40k is not a good reference, for the reasons you stated. Infinity or WM/H are well-balanced games, for example.Interesting. Some time ago I wanted to try WM but a comic derailed my interests; also interesting that I found it after all these years.Like I said, it's well-balanced faction wise, not model-wise. Take the wrong stuff against the wrong list and you're toast. No faction is inherently superior to others, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Anyway, the most balanced miniature games I've played would probably be Necromunda or Battlefleet Gothic aside from Malifaux. The old specialist games were great things of fun and even if there was a loss, the next game could reverse your fortunes in an instant.Necromunda was only balanced among the core gangs (ditto Mordheim) try playing with Spyrers/Scabbies/Arbites/Xeno and the game gets stupid. Battlefleet Gothic remains my favorite minis game when it comes to the actual strategy and aesthetic of play, but Malifaux's flavor is much more fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmod Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Anyway, the most balanced miniature games I've played would probably be Necromunda or Battlefleet Gothic aside from Malifaux. The old specialist games were great things of fun and even if there was a loss, the next game could reverse your fortunes in an instant.Necromunda was only balanced among the core gangs (ditto Mordheim) try playing with Spyrers/Scabbies/Arbites/Xeno and the game gets stupid. Battlefleet Gothic remains my favorite minis game when it comes to the actual strategy and aesthetic of play, but Malifaux's flavor is much more fun...Don't think Skaven was particularly well balanced in Mordheim either, especially against crews with little shooting like Cult... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordZombie Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Mordhiem, Necromunda, and Blood Bowl all start off very balanced, but the campaign rules quickly spin that out of control. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I thought the Mordheim core crews were (mostly) fine, but then I played Undead so the Skaven were never able to get started against me. Something about that really low leadership and most of my crew being Terrifying...The Dwarves and Elves (especially the Shadow Hunters) were broken as all hell though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valhallan42nd Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I thought the Mordheim core crews were (mostly) fine, but then I played Undead so the Skaven were never able to get started against me. Something about that really low leadership and most of my crew being Terrifying...The Dwarves and Elves (especially the Shadow Hunters) were broken as all hell though. Skavenheim was and is a great game. Here's hoping that the rumored specialist games revival is true. Also, I loved box set BFG. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmod Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I thought the Mordheim core crews were (mostly) fine, but then I played Undead so the Skaven were never able to get started against me. Something about that really low leadership and most of my crew being Terrifying...The Dwarves and Elves (especially the Shadow Hunters) were broken as all hell though. Cheap access to multiple sling slaves, high move and initiative, fighting claws and a really effective set of skills available means they quickly becomes machine gun wielding close combat monsters that get around better than everyone else... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valhallan42nd Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I also noted the cookie cutter comment above. It is also a concern of mine as a TO. On the other hand, I think there is a certain advantage to playing with a list that you know back and front. It think it's far better to play with the team you know that go with some untested possibly "more optimal" combo. (Note, I'm talking tournament play here, not casual play.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I thought the Mordheim core crews were (mostly) fine, but then I played Undead so the Skaven were never able to get started against me. Something about that really low leadership and most of my crew being Terrifying...The Dwarves and Elves (especially the Shadow Hunters) were broken as all hell though. Cheap access to multiple sling slaves, high move and initiative, fighting claws and a really effective set of skills available means they quickly becomes machine gun wielding close combat monsters that get around better than everyone else...None of which mattered when they ran screaming instead of actually charging any of my models. Now, had I been playing Marienburgers I'm sure I'd think differently 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarSol Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) I have 4 games I really love that I consider quite balanced: Malifaux, Warmachine, X-Wing, and Guild Ball. I wouldn't say Malifaux is really any more or less balanced than the others. Honestly, the only reason it doesn't have cookie cutter lists is because it doesn't have lists, period. If the tournament format rigidly locked you into a set of choices, you'd see a lot more discussion and trending towards separating models you should and shouldn't play, but the open build system means that niche choices can still be taken for their niche. Even then there are duds. It's just the way of things.X-Wing actually has an incredible amount of viable variety right now (it's been terrible in the past, IMO), but it suffers from one of it's big strengths: namely its a pretty low investment game and just a few ships fill up your entire list, that you're locked into for the entire tournament. It's also an easy game to play follow the leader with for that same low investment benefit, meaning that it's easy to jump on the things that win generally.Warmachine has excellent faction balance and honestly a pretty wide range of viable casters; its just got over 150 casters at this point and so many options there's just some duds in the mix. It's also, and this is true of X-Wing, a game that gets a ton of competitive play and competitive discussion that rapidly escalates the optimization of lists among the top tier players, which causes a lot of the cookie cutter effect from players less invested in the game.So, yeah. I'd recommend any of these games. No game, not even Malifaux lives in this magical land where there aren't advantages to building a tuned list. You can absolutely get run over with a crew not angled towards the strats and schemes your facing. Even then, people VASTLY over inflate the idea of winning or losing at list selection. Players act like that comic all the time but its ridiculous. A game played from a disadvantage isn't lost until you play it out and more often than not, you'll be surprised at how close "bad matchups" can be in any of these games. Edited December 12, 2015 by LunarSol 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrella Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) I think Malifaux's list building definitely is the advantage, it allows niche options to exist without suffering from the "not being good enough in all cases to take all the time" syndrome. Also, if you were to hand out a set of Strategy and Schemes to different players, even players with the same faction come up with various different lists for those, which is good.Side-Rant: I'm not sure if I'd call X-wing low investment, the whole upgrades being spread out over lots of ships (with the Advanced fix being with an epic ship) really ramps up the cost if you don't want to proxy anything (which you are not allowed in Tournaments), I think the cost for Heaver's list was about 275 dollars, with the other lists in Worlds being comparable, which is honestly a lot harder to stomach for me for 4 minis (and having to buy ships I might not even fly) than spending it on a full crew and have options in Malifaux. Edited December 12, 2015 by Astrella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarSol Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 True. I play it strictly casually so I forget people actually have to pay for upgrade cards rather than just the figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrella Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Mhm, that aside I really do like the game though. Just not too fond of the business model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nep Posted December 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 The old GW specialist games sound interesting, too bad I wasn't financially capable at the time. Thanks for the recommendations and I'll go have a look at these metal/plastic crack.On x-wing however, purely as an observer and I may be totally wrong in my views... I can not deny that it looks and sound like a great game; currently 27 on BBG ranking with 11858 voters. What I am skeptical about is the drastic meta-change and/or business model FFG is doing. At first people was fielding 8x ties competitively, then everyone ran dual falcons, now as the company introduce bigger ship this has become the new meta. I understand as a company that they want to introduce new products, but when you bring a new items and make your past purchases seem worthless does not appeal to me. I'm also interested in Imperial Assault but might just pick it up for the campaign, competitive skirmish looks bleh and they might replicate x-wing's business model.Since I'm talking about business models I do like what Wyrd is currently doing for Malifaux; you know what you're doing so yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yvarre Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Yea, having the fixed pool of factions and masters up front with tweeks, perks, and new models each book release makes for a pretty stable metagame, and Wyrd isn't really forcing people's hands to buy whole new models or crews each year to stay current or competitive. Having some variety in your faction(s) is important to cover your bases of different strats and schemes and is likewise a great motivating factor to invest. I've probably at this point dropped somewhere in the $500-$700 dollar range to get almost all of the Ten Thunders, having picked up some crew boxes and models as prizes for different events and even invested MTG draft winnings back into new models.The thing that sells this game for me ultimately, though, is that the more I play, the more different things I want to try. The range of options and playstyles of each faction and master is just so compelling that I find myself thinking, "Well, maybe I can start getting some Neverborn now..." Fun is an amazing selling point.As to standard lists, I do find myself looking at different strats and scheme pools and thinking about core lists ahead of time with flexible elements depending on the opposing faction, even going so far as to map out possible turns and look at areas of board control- setting scores for improvisation. But the final crew build always depends on the scheme and strat pool, what the opponent brings to the table, and what I think they're gonna try to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordZombie Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 A lot of miniature games are well balanced. WH40k is not a good reference, for the reasons you stated. Infinity or WM/H are well-balanced games, for example.Interesting. Some time ago I wanted to try WM but a comic derailed my interests; also interesting that I found it after all these years. Because that is still true of War Machine/ Hordes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.