Lili vs Shen

[cryion]

Yesterday I was obliterated for the second time by Shen Long. I dont know how to handle him with Lili. Wicked Vines is useless with all the pushes. Lili cant be anywhere near him either with his potentially high ML (via upgrade) and Soulstone denial. Tangling Shadows is pretty meh, with all that WP 6 running around on his side.

How do you deal with him?

[BlitzMonkey]

Actually, the first time I played against Shen with was Lili.  I essentially went for the long game.  Know that the first one or two turns, he is going to be in your grill.  I used Waldgeists to slow him down and then used Tangling Shadows as a way to pick off his models.  Shen isn't that scary without his army to back him.  

[santaclaws01]

What were your lists?

[cryion]

What were your lists?

Mine:

Lili - Beckon, Aether Con., On Wings

Hooded Rider, Graves, Johan, Doppelgaenger, Effigy, Pukeworm, Depleted (Turf War)

His, from memory:

Shen Long, Sensei Yu, Emissary, High River, Effigy, Lone Swordsman, Peasent x2 (one summoned), Sniper

Upgrades I cant really give you names:

 Increase ML for dmg, loads of Recalled Training (shen and lone), minus flips for me when upgrade discarded, something with a push maybe?

 

 

I made one mistake where I didnt challenge initiative and didnt realize he can reach me that easily.

Even if, his mobility seems ridiculous with that crew..

Edited December 10, 2015 by cryion

[santaclaws01]

What were your lists?

Mine:

Lili - Beckon, Aether Con., On Wings

Hooded Rider, Graves, Johan, Doppelgaenger, Effigy, Pukeworm, Depleted (Turf War)

His, from memory:

Shen Long, Sensei Yu, Emissary, High River, Effigy, Lone Swordsman, Peasent x2 (one summoned), Sniper

Upgrades I cant really give you names:

 Increase ML for dmg, loads of Recalled Training (shen and lone), minus flips for me when upgrade discarded, something with a push maybe?

 

 

I made one mistake where I didnt challenge initiative and didnt realize he can reach me that easily.

Even if, his mobility seems ridiculous with that crew..

To start off I wouldn't have taken the Effigy or Depleted. You would have been better served with an Illuminated. Also I would have taken Living Blade on Lilith. In turf war she's not going to need to ever charge, so you can sit there and get  to attack and damage flips, as well as keeping them from pushing to within 1" of you. Wicked Mistress would also have been a good idea. Wicked Vines someone, place your trees in front of you, then pull them in so they take 3 from Vines, 1/2/3 and receive slow from Transfixing Gaze, and if they were close enough you get to take a swing at them with Alarune, all for 2 AP and a (0).

As for how to deal with Shenlong, go for Sensei Yu. Either force Shenlong to switch to Low River style to heal up Yu or force Yu to run away which leaves Shenlong open to a pounding. If you need to tangle shadows someone, save a highcard and wait for your opponent to deplete his hand, then pull in the model you want. Additionally, sending the Hooded Rider at him would be a great way to a lot of damage easily, with him being able to deal a weak of 5 during turns 4 and 5 with his built in s, and on turn 3 if you flip/cheat a . Not much can handle a late game Hooded Rider wailing on them.

[the proxy union]

 

To start off I wouldn't have taken the Effigy or Depleted. You would have been better served with an Illuminated. Also I would have taken Living Blade on Lilith. In turf war she's not going to need to ever charge, so you can sit there and get  to attack and damage flips, as well as keeping them from pushing to within 1" of you. Wicked Mistress would also have been a good idea. Wicked Vines someone, place your trees in front of you, then pull them in so they take 3 from Vines, 1/2/3 and receive slow from Transfixing Gaze, and if they were close enough you get to take a swing at them with Alarune, all for 2 AP and a (0).

As for how to deal with Shenlong, go for Sensei Yu. Either force Shenlong to switch to Low River style to heal up Yu or force Yu to run away which leaves Shenlong open to a pounding. If you need to tangle shadows someone, save a highcard and wait for your opponent to deplete his hand, then pull in the model you want. Additionally, sending the Hooded Rider at him would be a great way to a lot of damage easily, with him being able to deal a weak of 5 during turns 4 and 5 with his built in s, and on turn 3 if you flip/cheat a . Not much can handle a late game Hooded Rider wailing on them.

I have to disagree with your assessment of her upgrades; aether connection and wings give you the durability, card manipulation, and movement options to out pace and outlast shenlong in a fight. not that you should be hitting shen with her anyway. she is more useful going after his crew and denying him the flexibility to finish schemes. also the situation you mention will require you to either flip of cheat with your stash of high cards. you are unlikely to be one turn killing [otk] shen anyway, so wear him down with angel eyes or a trapper or both while lilith takes care of the crew. opportunities may present themselves where you are forced to give action master on master, but you should never let it be an even encounter if you can help it.

also I have found that competent players will almost never give you the option or opportunity to end the sensei before he does his job of sending Izamu/lone swordsman up the field at ungodly speeds. you might be able to take him out after dealing with some other things in his list but the priority will likely end up being to survive and/or trade all your deadly pieces favorably with his while keeping models important to the scheme alive long enough to complete them or block him from doing the same.

There is no elegant way to play this match up. Sensei Yu will throw his guys forward at the worst times while you will need to make the most of Lilith's hit and run tactics with forests, and wicked vines on the swordsman. (he doesnt have a high wound count so 4 damage after a push can set him up to die to tots later on). after that doppelganger will be your best friend either by stealing sprint off of a tot and scheming on his board edge turn one, or by the more traditional route of stealing scary attacks and Sensei"s airburst.

If he has been on the receiving end of tangled shadows before you might be able to bait him into situations where you get to alpha strike with a teddy/ Lilith by running sacrificial models up where they can be tangled and yo-yo-ed back after swapping places with something mean. or forcing him to deal with something only for you to target one of his models with tangle, throwing a threat up field, and putting his guy toe to toe with your master... options.

think through your plays, watch the points, and only use Lilith's sword if you have nothing better to do. Seriously, her other printed actions are game changing. I once managed to block LOS from Ramos to a couple of scrap and kept him and Howard L. wicked vined to the spot for three turns. Lilith never swung that sword more than three to four times that game; She just sat there, locked down some really important models, and tanked hits from Joss, Ramos, and a spider for three turns by burning most of my cards and about five stones. The point of my not so humble brag being that while killing Ramos would be satisfying, it would have lost me the game.

 

-Proxy

p.s. Random side note, I like placing an appropriately sized base where I want a model to end up to make sure I can position things the way I need to Before I pick the models up. I find it helps simplify the really complicated decisions when you can visualize where things will end up being.

[cryion]

[...]

Great post, thank you very much!

I'm with you on how to use Lilith. Her sword is good, but you definitely dont want her in the middle of the action and rather use her other trickery.
They are game-changing, it's just that vs Shen Long it seems they are very hard to get through. But yea, Vines on Swordsman is a good idea indeed considering his low wd pool.
I ll have to play smarter next time!

[the proxy union]

most of that was based on mistakes I know I made in the few games I played of this match up. the fight gets dirty really fast and many times you need to pause mentally and stop reacting to his moves and start taking the lead. I know that sounds a little vague, but the pairing plays out with the play texture of a very tense chess match where bad cards can break either side harder than normal. which is why aethric connection, wings, and beckon malifaux will feel like they do more work than normal, and doppleganger is an mvp.

-Proxy

[Jokerboy]

I like the way you play Lil a lot, because its definitely more fun and the game is about VP, not about killing.

But since I am the player you lost against, (An dieser Stelle liebe Grüße :P) if the declared Faction of your opponent is 10T, don't try to win the game by movement or tricky playing. Neverborn are great at move or place effects, but 10T are better at this.

[the proxy union]

No doubt, 10T has movement shenanigans that I can only dream of taking in neverborn. I'm saying that it's an incredibly tight match-up that needs to be played with a lot of thought behind your moves. sensei yu will send the really mean stuff where you want it the least, and then complete schemes all on his own while your tied up. Additionally, fighting Shenlong with Lilith head to head is likely not the best use of your master's ap. Continuing on that train of thought, tying up Shenlong with a tough minion and using Lilith to take out things like lone swordsman, ototo, or to finish off Izamu (because armor 2 doesn't drop easily) will be more likely to have the long term effect you as the neverborn player are looking for.

-Proxy