Schemes & Stones Ten Thunders Jakob Lynch

[Khyodee]

Let us know what you think about this weeks show!

http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-25-master-spotlight-ten-thunders-jakob-lynch/

[mattbird]

I think he needs to try 52 Pickup.

[RarerMonsters]

I think he needs to try 52 Pickup.

Ditto, he talked so much about all the conditions of pulling it off, but doing so ignored it's main benefit:

No attack flip, no action spent. Whatever model you're up against, you can pick out 3 aces you've dug out and do 6 damage with no chance of failure without even spending a 0 action.

Another great trick with it: Zero is a number. If you're decks' been running really hot and/or you've used the red joker, you can select your own models, reveal 0 aces, and then shuffle in your discard to reset your odds.

[enderwiggin]

Never thought about re-stacking the deck with that idea... You'd probably have to activate very early in the crew to make it worthwhile, but it's certainly another trick for the bag of tools.

[Eclipse]

 

Another great trick with it: Zero is a number. If you're decks' been running really hot and/or you've used the red joker, you can select your own models, reveal 0 aces, and then shuffle in your discard to reset your odds.

Didn't think of this, and I though I knew all about Lynch The upgrade sounds even better now  

[ukrocky]

Afternoon all,

Had another couple tournaments with lynch since the podcast and yet to have a chance to listen back to it!

Regarding 52 pick up - I've been chatting with a few people on Twitter about it, and basically, it's not for me! Between Mulligan, holding onto an ace, range, and straight up just discarding aces at the end of a turn, I believe it *can* probably be great, but it's just not for me!

[Eclipse]

Afternoon all,

Had another couple tournaments with lynch since the podcast and yet to have a chance to listen back to it!

Regarding 52 pick up - I've been chatting with a few people on Twitter about it, and basically, it's not for me! Between Mulligan, holding onto an ace, range, and straight up just discarding aces at the end of a turn, I believe it *can* probably be great, but it's just not for me!

To each his own I now leave it home most often, but I won't forget the turn when I killed the Cerberus that had been hounding me and downed Huggy and a Depleted the previous activation... Activate Lynch, draw two, Mulligan, Play for Blood (cheated the Terryfying, lol), six from Final Debt. The cat is down and out pop Killjoy and Huggy at the same time. Lucky flips on randomization and damage + ram trigger on the gun and four aces end of activation to demolish the Pudge look-alike. That was the sign for my opponent to scoop as I had Huggy to activate and it had an open line to charge something important... Anyway, point of the story is, it probably will work like this in one of twenty games, but when it does, it's bombastic. And fun. On your side of the table  

[OneLittleThunder]

Because of the way 52 Pickup is phrased, I don't know that I'd agree that it can be done without revealing aces.

At the end of this model's Activation, this model may reveal any number of Aces from its hand. If it does so, the revealed Aces and this model's discard pile are shuffled...

I feel like revealing zero Aces wouldn't trigger the "if it does so" clause, since you're not revealing anything. That said, I think there are times when giving up an Ace to reshuffle the deck is well worth it, even if there's no damage to be done.

[enderwiggin]

I disagree for a few reasons: zero is a number, a period separates those clauses, and most importantly there's not a minimum number set on the number to be revealed ("if at least one etc.").

Disclaimer: It's dirty MTG rules-reading and, tbh, the designers have made it clear in a few cases that the language used should probably be read in a more relaxed manner.

Plus, I would disagree because they cuddled lynch all kneejerk-like and it's irritating to see that sort of thing so sparsely used when he wasn't as big a complaint factory as other more well known models.

[tomjoad]

There are other places in Malifaux (and loads of places in MTG) where 0 is not considered (when damaging, for instance, 0 is not counted). I know we're not supposed to generalize, but if you reveal 0 aces, you haven't revealed any aces, so that should end it.

Edited December 11, 2015 by tomjoad

[enderwiggin]

RAI I do agree with that, and I really wouldn't mind playing where you have to show t least one since I find it extremely rare where I'd burn high cards, want to activate Lynch quite early (forgoing more cards), and then not do any damage with aces picked up thus far...

Really I don't think it would come up in 99/100 games.

[Carecalmo]

I read the ability as having to reveal at least one ace. If you reveal zero aces, you don't reveal any cards - and so you haven't fulfill the condition of revealing aces from your hand.

It reminds me of this question from the FAQ, though I realize it is not exactly the same. I think it's because "damage" and "damaging" are more precisely defined than "revealing (a card)" .

18) Q: If a model suffers 0 (zero) damage, does it count as having suffered damage?

A: No.

EDIT: Anyhow, I realise this is getting off topic, so I figured I'd also say that I enjoyed the episode very much. I just got into Malifaux with Ten Thunders Misaki and am looking to expand to a second master in the new year. Lynch is definitely in my thoughts for this because of this podcast. Having so much card control seems wonderful for making sure the plans you make also come through. 

Edited December 12, 2015 by Carecalmo

[Yvarre]

The Rising Sun is awesome for Reckoning, Collect the Bounty, Turf War and other situations where having a recurring beatstick or having a model not count as dying matter.

Endless Darkness is great for Guard the Stash or any strat or scheme you want to pull models out of position.  Combined with a Beckoner or two, Huggy and Lynch can just have their victims come to them.  And the versatility of having an extra AP each turn can be clutch-between obeying (sometimes giving out paralyzed cheating an ace on a horror duel against Illuminated, etc.) and just having 3 AP to make things dead and possibly heal.  With at least 3 start of turn activations with something like an Illuminated and 2 Depleted, good models to kill will probably walk into Beckoner range.  Then Huggy and Lynch can wipe out  activated, lured targets of opportunity with some Depleted and Illuminated out front to hold back a bum rush. Flavor and style wise, this seems like the backroom casino kill and feed Huggy fest.  Though the patrons have reservations about the strange, glowing, melted looking humans grabbing at them and the polymorphic, insectoid bodyguards, those beckoners seem so wlecoming and warm...  Plus, Beckoners can brilliance the model for Lynch to Final Debt, allowing him 2 AP to kill something else. 

I also like crew builds that cause alot of flips during a model's activation (Samurai!) to dig for aces.  Drawing 2 at the end of the turn and fairly reliably having 3 aces is a 5 damage minimum for Final Debt.

[enderwiggin]

I agree with the view that Beckoners are not worth seven stones. If you ever think to take two, take one and a doppleganger if you really need luring. I'd take two Beckoners though in TT I guess.

[Eclipse]

The Rising Sun is awesome for Reckoning, Collect the Bounty, Turf War and other situations where having a recurring beatstick or having a model not count as dying matter.

Endless Darkness is great for Guard the Stash or any strat or scheme you want to pull models out of position.  Combined with a Beckoner or two, Huggy and Lynch can just have their victims come to them.  And the versatility of having an extra AP each turn can be clutch-between obeying (sometimes giving out paralyzed cheating an ace on a horror duel against Illuminated, etc.) and just having 3 AP to make things dead and possibly heal.  With at least 3 start of turn activations with something like an Illuminated and 2 Depleted, good models to kill will probably walk into Beckoner range.  Then Huggy and Lynch can wipe out  activated, lured targets of opportunity with some Depleted and Illuminated out front to hold back a bum rush. Flavor and style wise, this seems like the backroom casino kill and feed Huggy fest.  Though the patrons have reservations about the strange, glowing, melted looking humans grabbing at them and the polymorphic, insectoid bodyguards, those beckoners seem so wlecoming and warm...  Plus, Beckoners can brilliance the model for Lynch to Final Debt, allowing him 2 AP to kill something else. 

I also like crew builds that cause alot of flips during a model's activation (Samurai!) to dig for aces.  Drawing 2 at the end of the turn and fairly reliably having 3 aces is a 5 damage minimum for Final Debt.

Couldn't have put it any better. So we agree that Samurai are awesome?

I agree with the view that Beckoners are not worth seven stones. If you ever think to take two, take one and a doppleganger if you really need luring.

Two Beckoners is a little too much most of the time probably. Still, if only we could take the Doppelganger in Ten Thunders... sigh...

[Yvarre]

It's really only in Guard the Stash that I find 2 Beckoners awesome, as TT's Lure on Oirans requiring a high crow is subpar, though Lynch's hand manipulation actually mitigates this.  You can easily get it so that at least 1 stash marker is completely in the Beckoners' sightlines, and Graves can take the blindspot in the other.  With the Not that Kind of Girl trigger, the Beckoners advance while they lure and can reposition to get at models they can't see.  With Lynch and Huggy able to kill anything that comes near them, the Beckoners end up being pretty safe and prime candidates for Protect Territory or stash guards if the Depleteds, Illuminated, and Graves somehow die.  Cause at that point, the opponent likely won't have much of a crew anyways either.  To note, I don't have Lust yet.

Yea, stacking the hand with aces for guaranteed high damage on Final Debt is great, especially with samurai blowing through at least 8-10 cards but 15 or 20 is not unrealistic.  Chances are good you'll see some aces, hopefully not on damage.  It also gives great information on what to expect from your deck for the rest of the turn.  How many face cards went by?  Jokers?  Having played alot of poker, this information helps me in determining how deeply to commit certain models to defend and my chances to hit with different attacks.

The guaranteed damage on Wanna See a Trick seems really good, but I usually don't have any legal targets for it at that point anyways, and I really like to Mulligan those aces for better cards so Lynch doesn't miss in a pinch or, the better option, my hand is just absurd for the next turn.  It is only 1 stone, though, and can prove important if something does manage to survive that could do some damage to Lynch next turn.

[lusciousmccabe]

Wanna See a Trick I find is useful for causing multiple instances of damage. That can be better for dealing with certain types of damage mitigation compared with the larger chunks of Lynch can deal with Final Debt or his gun. I'd usually take it over a larger cache just for that flexibility, but if the cost can be used to upgrade/exchange another model meaningfully or Lynch is running short on upgrade slots I'm happy enough to lose it.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2015 by lusciousmccabe

[santaclaws01]

Wanna See a Trick I find is useful for causing multiple instances of damage. That can be better for dealing with certain types of damage mitigation compared with the larger chunks of Lynch can deal with Final Debt or his gun. I'd usually take it over a larger cache just for that flexibility, but if the cost can be used to upgrade/exchange another model meaningfully or Lynch is running short on upgrade slots I'm happy enough to lose it.

 

 

That's pretty much how I see it. It's going to be better than just a soulstone would be, but it's not an auto-include. Though it is always nice when you do get 4 aces in your hand and seeing your opponents face when you do 8 nigh unavoidable damage to a beater they sent in to kill Lynch. One thing I've taken to doing when the the scheme/strat pool fits is using any model with Flurry or Rapid fire as a card milling machiene to try and get those aces. It's a lot easier to get them when you can flip ~1/4 of your deck in one activation. Bonus points if you have the black joker in your hand so you don't even have to worry about that.

[Eclipse]

Wanna See a Trick I find is useful for causing multiple instances of damage. That can be better for dealing with certain types of damage mitigation compared with the larger chunks of Lynch can deal with Final Debt or his gun. I'd usually take it over a larger cache just for that flexibility, but if the cost can be used to upgrade/exchange another model meaningfully or Lynch is running short on upgrade slots I'm happy enough to lose it.

That's pretty much how I see it. It's going to be better than just a soulstone would be, but it's not an auto-include. Though it is always nice when you do get 4 aces in your hand and seeing your opponents face when you do 8 nigh unavoidable damage to a beater they sent in to kill Lynch. One thing I've taken to doing when the the scheme/strat pool fits is using any model with Flurry or Rapid fire as a card milling machine to try and get those aces. It's a lot easier to get them when you can flip ~1/4 of your deck in one activation. Bonus points if you have the black joker in your hand so you don't even have to worry about that.

Flurry, Rapid Fire, the + flips from focus or Addict for the Darkened minions, as well as the insane number of flips of the Samurai... While Neverborn Lynch is much about the synergy with the theme crew and then rounding up the crew with useful models, here he has an even greater flexibility paired up with even more mobility tricks. This, added to his hand-stacking ability and all the stuff Huggy brings, is pure awesome. In Neverborn Lynch is a no-brainer: Woke Up With A Hand, 52 Pickup and The Rising Sun; Huggy with Fears Given Form and Addict. In 10T I can mix and match stuff a lot and keep my opponents guessing, all the while keeping things interesting for me personally