Gamin model question

[paxmiles]

If I paint up a trio of Ice Gamin as Fire Gamin, am I going to get flak for not using the right model? Or rather, will it create unreasonable amounts of confusion?

I own the Ice Gamin unpainted, and don't own the Fire Gamin, and making the model look fiery doesn't seem like much of a stretch. Thoughts?

PS: This would be the metal Ice Gamin model, not the current plastic one.

[solkan]

Please allow me to provide you with your requested internet generated flack for fielding an ice gamin as a fire gamin.    "Boo!  Buy the right model!  Boo!"  This has been your requested flack. 

Naturally, if you manage to make the ice gamin look sufficiently fiery (perhaps by adding green stuff flames or something), then that's a conversion.  A really impressive magma paint job might be okay, too, I suppose.  If you're at a tournament, that's going to fall under the model conversion policy, so you want to make sure you do a good job, but like any other conversion it's going to be a case-by-case decision.  One of the big factors is going to be "How well can the other person tell your models apart?"

Disclaimer:  My opinion of your models shouldn't matter unless we're likely to actually play each other. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by solkan

[lusciousmccabe]

Metal Ice Fire Gamin? I'd be cool with that. 

[SpiralngCadavr]

Unpainted would probably make me cranky unless it was really obvious (i.e. you're pretty safe to assume kaeris will run fire) at which point it would be okay. Glowing red or w/e and I wouldn't think twice.

[Fetid Strumpet]

It's up to the TO if you use them at an event. Casual, as long as they were obviously painted to look like fire gamin and you didn't try to use them as both ice and fire at the same time I'd be ok with it personally.

[MR TORGUE]

oooh you could paint them as black obsidian... that would look cool... I would totally accept that.

To be honest though I'm not a proxy nazi so you could prob use a jelly baby on a 50mm base and say is ashes and dust; then tear in in half and stick it to two 40mm bases when it splits to a dust cloud and core. Even this would get past my low standards of proxy use. 

 

Edited December 7, 2015 by tollstar_deluxe

[Spike0738]

Some Tournaments I've been to require a "what you see is what you get concept"... So, as Solkan has said, if you do some conversion (green stuff / sculpting) than you would be okay. However; it's also very possible that a judge may ding you on score (if they do paint scores at your tourney) or just ask you not to use the model if it's essentially just a red Ice Gamin. 

Most places I've been, are fairly lenient if there is a good amount of effort put in. The only time I've seen an issue, is when people just get lazy...

[Kirby]

If the base model is an ice gamin but you'd painted, converted, whatevered it to the point that at a cursory glance you think "Fire Gamin", then you're all set.  It will be a very rare occasion that someone will fuss.

[Bengt]

In my opinion, just painting it different is not enough. It's just an Ice Gamin then as there really isn't any reason for them to be blue in the first place (ice/water isn't blue, or at least not blue enough to be noticeable for such small amounts). If they are anything but white/grey the colour must come from impurities in the water or the animating magic, either of which could be any colour, yellow, green, pink!

So for them to become Fire Gamin in my eyes the icy bits (crags on their faces, the ice weapons) should be removed and some flames/hair and tails modelled on.

[lusciousmccabe]

Meh, the metal Ice Gamin look about as similiar to Fire Gamin as they do their new plastic counterparts. I don't see whey it should be a problem to field them if you paint them up flaming, it'll be pretty obvious they aren't made of ice at that point. 

I sometimes wonder how people can be so finicky about using specific models when there's so many different takes on the same models out there. Between legal conversions, re-sculpts, alt sculpts and all the different basing/painting options a given model could look like practically anything. It seems a bit strange to nitpick over details when you're expected to just accept that a Bunny is a Pig when your opponent drops it on the table, even if you had no idea previously that Wyrd had made an official statement somewhere that they are the same. Obviously Wyrd (or whatever TO) has the final word on what is acceptable, but it seems in the spirit of the proxy policy that if you go out of your way to make one Wyrd model look like another similar one and explain that to your opponent ahead of time it should be fine. 

Note: I'm not referring to you personally as being finicky Bengt, your comment about paintschemes just reminded me of some general observations.

[paxmiles]

Meh, the metal Ice Gamin look about as similiar to Fire Gamin as they do their new plastic counterparts. I don't see whey it should be a problem to field them if you paint them up flaming, it'll be pretty obvious they aren't made of ice at that point. 

I sometimes wonder how people can be so finicky about using specific models when there's so many different takes on the same models out there. Between legal conversions, re-sculpts, alt sculpts and all the different basing/painting options a given model could look like practically anything. It seems a bit strange to nitpick over details when you're expected to just accept that a Bunny is a Pig when your opponent drops it on the table, even if you had no idea previously that Wyrd had made an official statement somewhere that they are the same. Obviously Wyrd (or whatever TO) has the final word on what is acceptable, but it seems in the spirit of the proxy policy that if you go out of your way to make one Wyrd model look like another similar one and explain that to your opponent ahead of time it should be fine. 

Note: I'm not referring to you personally as being finicky Bengt, your comment about paintschemes just reminded me of some general observations.

I'm still surprised that Wyrd actually made 3 different gamin models, when they all look about the same. Seems like the metal, ice, and fire gamins could easily have been a single kit.

[solkan]

Meh, the metal Ice Gamin look about as similiar to Fire Gamin as they do their new plastic counterparts. I don't see whey it should be a problem to field them if you paint them up flaming, it'll be pretty obvious they aren't made of ice at that point. 

I sometimes wonder how people can be so finicky about using specific models when there's so many different takes on the same models out there. Between legal conversions, re-sculpts, alt sculpts and all the different basing/painting options a given model could look like practically anything. It seems a bit strange to nitpick over details when you're expected to just accept that a Bunny is a Pig when your opponent drops it on the table, even if you had no idea previously that Wyrd had made an official statement somewhere that they are the same. Obviously Wyrd (or whatever TO) has the final word on what is acceptable, but it seems in the spirit of the proxy policy that if you go out of your way to make one Wyrd model look like another similar one and explain that to your opponent ahead of time it should be fine. 

Note: I'm not referring to you personally as being finicky Bengt, your comment about paintschemes just reminded me of some general observations.

I'm still surprised that Wyrd actually made 3 different gamin models, when they all look about the same. Seems like the metal, ice, and fire gamins could easily have been a single kit.

Well, by that standard most of the people in Malifaux look about the same.    Why have more than one model for half of the Ten Thunders minions?  Or different models for the Friekorps?  Or different models for the Guild?

 

[Sordid Strumpet]

Metal Gamin look very different to the other gamins. But I can't see myself ever using more than two gamins, so painting a fire and an ice gamin in windy colours (maybe turquise/white?) would be absolutely acceptable. Maybe some simple andvery minor green stuff alterations.

[paxmiles]

Well, by that standard most of the people in Malifaux look about the same.    Why have more than one model for half of the Ten Thunders minions?  Or different models for the Friekorps?  Or different models for the Guild?

 

They did release a set for "Males" and another set for "Females", which are great sets. Why not do a "Gamin" set? A Friekorps set would be awesome, too, especially with that friekorps suit being as an optional upgrade in shifting loyalties.

Granted I come from a background with GW minis, but I really like the generic sets better than the specific ones. I really wish hannah came with a male body option too (he'd make a great inquisitor karamazov that way). I like being able to make my own incarnation of each model, and malifaux printing the sizes on the cards is an amazingly smart step towards solving issues related to unique conversions.

[Freman]

I'm probably just going to paint a metal Ice Gamin firstly red orange and yellow, then drybrush metallics over it to make it a molten metal Metal Gamin.

I think it'll look pretty good.

[Bengt]

 

Well, by that standard most of the people in Malifaux look about the same.    Why have more than one model for half of the Ten Thunders minions?  Or different models for the Friekorps?  Or different models for the Guild?

 

They did release a set for "Males" and another set for "Females", which are great sets. Why not do a "Gamin" set? A Friekorps set would be awesome, too, especially with that friekorps suit being as an optional upgrade in shifting loyalties.

Granted I come from a background with GW minis, but I really like the generic sets better than the specific ones. I really wish hannah came with a male body option too (he'd make a great inquisitor karamazov that way). I like being able to make my own incarnation of each model, and malifaux printing the sizes on the cards is an amazingly smart step towards solving issues related to unique conversions.

When compared to a GW set like Tactical Marines the TtB male/female sets are pretty terrible in my opinion. The male set has 12 bodies in exactly the same pose and one that is squatting (I think the female set only have one pose), if you want a different stance them you'll have to cut them apart yourself. The arms are somewhat interchangeable. The sets are good value if you just want to make lots of Mindless Zombies or something and don't really care what they look like though. It can also be used as a base for conversions since for most people it's easier to reshape a body than sculpting it completely from clay. Compared to poseable GW sets it's really rather sad, but to be fair GW have made poseable sets for 25-30 years (when did RTB01 come out?).

As for Gamin, while the Ice/Fire/Wind have the same body shape, the details that set them apart are small and modelled onto them. If you were to make a set that made all of them you would need to either have completely different parts for 90% of the model or have just the details lose (feathers, flames, etc) which would make said details clunky as all hell.

[Sordid Strumpet]

With a few exceptions, however, the quality of Wyrd miniatures leaves anything produced by GW in the dust in terms of detail. They aren't market leaders in anything besides enormous models like Archaon any more, and I'm not even sure there.

 

[paxmiles]

On 12/20/2015 at 11:22 PM, Bengt said:

 

When compared to a GW set like Tactical Marines the TtB male/female sets are pretty terrible in my opinion. The male set has 12 bodies in exactly the same pose and one that is squatting (I think the female set only have one pose), if you want a different stance them you'll have to cut them apart yourself. The arms are somewhat interchangeable. The sets are good value if you just want to make lots of Mindless Zombies or something and don't really care what they look like though. It can also be used as a base for conversions since for most people it's easier to reshape a body than sculpting it completely from clay. Compared to poseable GW sets it's really rather sad, but to be fair GW have made poseable sets for 25-30 years (when did RTB01 come out?).

As for Gamin, while the Ice/Fire/Wind have the same body shape, the details that set them apart are small and modelled onto them. If you were to make a set that made all of them you would need to either have completely different parts for 90% of the model or have just the details lose (feathers, flames, etc) which would make said details clunky as all hell.

Wasn't considering the wind one, though mostly because that one isn't out yet (as far as I know). Just thinking that Ice and Fire ones look pretty similar and it would be easy to make a single kit. The metal one is a bit different, they could all be done with the right accessories for a basic model. 

As for the non-posable Wyrd kits, although I agree that Wyrd kits aren't nearly as customizable as the GW ones, Wyrd is currently the only one of the two to even attempt a female kit...a sheer lack of female models in the GW universe.

On 12/20/2015 at 2:23 AM, Sordid Strumpet said:

With a few exceptions, however, the quality of Wyrd miniatures leaves anything produced by GW in the dust in terms of detail. They aren't market leaders in anything besides enormous models like Archaon any more, and I'm not even sure there.

 

Just let you keep thinking this. The wyrd models are certainly more realistic in the scale which they are made (as in body parts scaling to eachother), though I'd gladly trade that for the GW style, which is designed around making limbs or weapons that are thicker, and therefore, less fragile.

Now, if you only paint models. I can totally see why wyrd models would appeal to you. I am a fan of conversion, so the wyrd models are often lacking in my eyes purely due to thin and fragile sections found on most models. They look good, but are often a huge pain to alter.

Wyrd models make good display pieces, but I don't feel they are designed with a reasonable amount of gaming model transportation in mind. The new plastics, especially. Many of the new GW sets also suffer from a lack of ability to easily transport the model from home, to the hobby shop, and back, without damaging your model despite reasonable precaution.

As for which is better at detail, that one really depends on the model. Some of the GW models are amazing, and many are lacking. Wyrd has similar results. I do, really like the clothing that some of the wyrd models have. The hats in particular, are awesome across the entire line.

[lusciousmccabe]

Speaking of metal gamin I can't for the life of me understand why one of them is a kobold.

[Bengt]

2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Wasn't considering the wind one, though mostly because that one isn't out yet (as far as I know). Just thinking that Ice and Fire ones look pretty similar and it would be easy to make a single kit. The metal one is a bit different, they could all be done with the right accessories for a basic model. 

As for the non-posable Wyrd kits, although I agree that Wyrd kits aren't nearly as customizable as the GW ones, Wyrd is currently the only one of the two to even attempt a female kit...a sheer lack of female models in the GW universe.

Just let you keep thinking this. The wyrd models are certainly more realistic in the scale which they are made (as in body parts scaling to eachother), though I'd gladly trade that for the GW style, which is designed around making limbs or weapons that are thicker, and therefore, less fragile.

Now, if you only paint models. I can totally see why wyrd models would appeal to you. I am a fan of conversion, so the wyrd models are often lacking in my eyes purely due to thin and fragile sections found on most models. They look good, but are often a huge pain to alter.

Wyrd models make good display pieces, but I don't feel they are designed with a reasonable amount of gaming model transportation in mind. The new plastics, especially. Many of the new GW sets also suffer from a lack of ability to easily transport the model from home, to the hobby shop, and back, without damaging your model despite reasonable precaution.

As for which is better at detail, that one really depends on the model. Some of the GW models are amazing, and many are lacking. Wyrd has similar results. I do, really like the clothing that some of the wyrd models have. The hats in particular, are awesome across the entire line.

The Wind and Fire Gamin are by far the most similar ones (going by the concept art). They mostly differ in posture and feather/fire details. Ice gamin on the other hand lack tails, have different feet and hands, use weapons. Of course in the grand scheme of things all three are fairly similar but that just makes the subtle differences harder to modularize without getting clunky.

To each their own, nowadays I absolutely detest the "heroic" aesthetic that GW made popular and Privateer Press adopted and made more X-TREME!!!! I liked it way back when I was just starting with miniature games, but that is a long time ago now.

Only some of GWs lines are easier to transport (e.g. Space Marines) than Wyrd, while others (e.g. Daemons) are worse as they not only have lots of things sticking out in all directions, they are also much larger. Personally I use magnetized transport for my Wyrd miniatures and have no trouble.

[paxmiles]

18 hours ago, Bengt said:

Only some of GWs lines are easier to transport (e.g. Space Marines) than Wyrd, while others (e.g. Daemons) are worse as they not only have lots of things sticking out in all directions, they are also much larger. Personally I use magnetized transport for my Wyrd miniatures and have no trouble.

GW's old metals aren't as thin as many of the new plastics. I agree, the new plastic Daemons (especially) are pretty annoying to work with, while the old metal daemons are amazing models. The Necrons have always had weak ankles (metal and plastic versions) and there are certainly a few others.

As for transportation, are you putting the models in a case that rides in a car? Or are you putting them in case that is carried on the bus, strapped to your back, or transported via bicycle. I live in a town with amazing public transportation, but It's pretty hard on models, and model cases. I'm especially annoyed at how none of the model transport cases on the market seem to have devised a watertight option (their are many options here, just not model cases).

On subject, if you look back at the old GW metals, many of those are much more in line with the style that Wyrd does (not the scale, but the style). They just were more creative and free form with their models, than GW is now. That is one of the appeals of the wyrd models, to me, is how like the old GW ones they are (often).

[Bengt]

3 hours ago, paxmiles said:

As for transportation, are you putting the models in a case that rides in a car? Or are you putting them in case that is carried on the bus, strapped to your back, or transported via bicycle. I live in a town with amazing public transportation, but It's pretty hard on models, and model cases. I'm especially annoyed at how none of the model transport cases on the market seem to have devised a watertight option (their are many options here, just not model cases).

I usually go by train and/or walk. I built my magnetized transport from a rigid plastic GW case from the 90's, the type that came with three layers of red foam. It could probably be made reasonable water resistant if you put rubber strips along the edge of the lid.

[MR TORGUE]

On 12/22/2015 at 4:11 PM, lusciousmccabe said:

Speaking of metal gamin I can't for the life of me understand why one of them is a kobold.

I know right!? I suppose Mei-Feng sculpts them in the image of Oni or eastern mythic creatures since fluff-wise she's the blue-print holder of the little bastards