Summoning Dreamer in Stake A Claim

[Whut]

I'm having a lot of trouble playing Summoning Dreamer in Stake a Claim. The problem being that in Stake I usually have my opponent headed right towards me instead of to some center objective, and since I take 2 Silurids for their speed and incredible Stake a Claim power, I don't really have the staying power and reach to survive long enough to see my summons heal up and be effective and spread across the entire board.

My base list is:

Dreamer, Dreams of Pain, Otherworldly, Wings of Darkness

Daydreams x2

Teddy, Retribution's Eye

Silurid x2

12 SS remaining

 

The problem is that 12 SS remaining is illusive. It's really more like "I want to spend exactly 10 SS" because I feel like 5 SS is my sweet spot with Dreamer (where I don't have too little nor waste by taking too many). The problem is, with this setup, I really lack a frontline/resilience/damage, ESPECIALLY without Teddy. Once Teddy either goes down or gets paralyzed/buried, I suddenly lose all momentum and get placed on the back foot, resulting in it being WAY too easy for my opponent to kill off my fresh summons.

Any list advice? Am I maybe summoning too aggressively too quickly? I try to summon 3 models (Lilitu, preferably Lelu, and whatever I have cards for) on first turn, and they are usually dead by the end of second or third at the hands of a strong, knowledgeable opponent with little fear of retaliation (by which I mean either good cards or enough SS to survive a single Teddy charge). On second turn I try to summon 2 models and Empty Night something else, resulting in 4 Waking and Chompy coming out, but lately its been backfiring because chompy doesn't do much other than move to reposition Dreamer, and when Chompy comes out I'm unable to Accomplice one of my summons (preferably a Stitched) for a quick heal and damage. Should I try summoning just twice per turn, ending with 2 Waking at the end of Turn 2, allowing me to maybe walk or Empty Night more, and plan for Chompy to come out on Turn 3?

Edited November 30, 2015 by Whut

[Nical]

I recommend Tannen / Coppelius. Tennen can boost your summoning and deny your opponents interacts and Coppelius is very versatile. 

And Scion of Black Blood is good model for Summoning Dreamer, because his condition removal ability can remove wake condition.

 

 

[Whut]

Tannen though is slow and fragile. Maybe in a more passive scheme pool, but when I need to be fast, I'm not so sure. I'll try him out maybe sometime.

Coppelius I've played with twice and he's done nothing but make wish I'd taken something better for 10 points (with On Dreaming Wings). To start with his Df4 makes him SUPER fragile, and getting eyes is really hard unless you give him fast and let him charge an isolated enemy (otherwise he'll just get ganged up on and killed). He's not that tanky unless fully eyeballed and his damage is abysmal for a 10ss model (even for an 8 ss model). All he brings to the table is speed, but if you want speed you can get two Bloodwretches for the same cost. I've heard good things about him but I've never been able to make good use of him myself.

Problem with the Scion is that his aura needs you to discard two cards. I'm usually pretty card starved with Dreamer as it is. In my opinion for anything other than the condition removal, I'd rather take Graves.

Not to sound closed off to advice, I appreciate the tips. Just thought I'd share why I haven't tried these things yet.

[lusciousmccabe]

I would drop one of the silurids and then use the Dreamer to summon stuff upfield for the strategy as necessary. Coppelius is really good to summon with the Dreamer because you can drop him in range to attack and then accomplice. On Dreaming wings is expensive and I find he doesn't really need the extra speed so you don't really need to hire him.

You should consider summoning less stuff. If you only summon two things per round you can go on a lot longer before worrying about chompy and get more healing and movement while using less cards.

Why would tannen being slow be an issue if your opponent is coming straight to you? He's great at draining cards which can even up the field after you've summoned and he does loads of other stuff as long as you can keep him alive.

Edited November 30, 2015 by lusciousmccabe

[feagaur]

Have you thought of running some Waldergiest. They may not add much to the synergy of the dreamer but they will slow your opponent down, hopefully giving you time to get your summons in. It might even be worth replacing the silurids with gupps or terror totts to add more Waldergiest. Silurids are good, but they're expensive when it comes to your average scheme runner.

[santaclaws01]

Tannen though is slow and fragile. Maybe in a more passive scheme pool, but when I need to be fast, I'm not so sure. I'll try him out maybe sometime.

Coppelius I've played with twice and he's done nothing but make wish I'd taken something better for 10 points (with On Dreaming Wings). To start with his Df4 makes him SUPER fragile, and getting eyes is really hard unless you give him fast and let him charge an isolated enemy (otherwise he'll just get ganged up on and killed). He's not that tanky unless fully eyeballed and his damage is abysmal for a 10ss model (even for an 8 ss model). All he brings to the table is speed, but if you want speed you can get two Bloodwretches for the same cost. I've heard good things about him but I've never been able to make good use of him myself.

Problem with the Scion is that his aura needs you to discard two cards. I'm usually pretty card starved with Dreamer as it is. In my opinion for anything other than the condition removal, I'd rather take Graves.

Not to sound closed off to advice, I appreciate the tips. Just thought I'd share why I haven't tried these things yet.

Have Coppelius go after you opponents scheme runners until he gets a couple Eyeballs. Save you rams and crows for him, because being able to attack again or just deal moderate damage without the flip is very good. He doesn't hit hard because he's a support piece more than a beater. And remember you can have more than 3 Eyeballs, you just only get to a max of +3 Df with them.

[Whut]

Tannen though is slow and fragile. Maybe in a more passive scheme pool, but when I need to be fast, I'm not so sure. I'll try him out maybe sometime.

Coppelius I've played with twice and he's done nothing but make wish I'd taken something better for 10 points (with On Dreaming Wings). To start with his Df4 makes him SUPER fragile, and getting eyes is really hard unless you give him fast and let him charge an isolated enemy (otherwise he'll just get ganged up on and killed). He's not that tanky unless fully eyeballed and his damage is abysmal for a 10ss model (even for an 8 ss model). All he brings to the table is speed, but if you want speed you can get two Bloodwretches for the same cost. I've heard good things about him but I've never been able to make good use of him myself.

Problem with the Scion is that his aura needs you to discard two cards. I'm usually pretty card starved with Dreamer as it is. In my opinion for anything other than the condition removal, I'd rather take Graves.

Not to sound closed off to advice, I appreciate the tips. Just thought I'd share why I haven't tried these things yet.

Have Coppelius go after you opponents scheme runners until he gets a couple Eyeballs. Save you rams and crows for him, because being able to attack again or just deal moderate damage without the flip is very good. He doesn't hit hard because he's a support piece more than a beater. And remember you can have more than 3 Eyeballs, you just only get to a max of +3 Df with them.

My issue with him is that it just takes way too long for me to ramp him up and doesn't amount to much. He is 10ss, which at the least is an Ama no Zako or almost a Mature/Teddy which can do tons of damage. For those 10ss, first turn you tend to double walk to intercept a scheme runner, and then second turn you walk and get to make 1 attack (because they're not going to put their isolated scheme runner within 8" and LoS of you). Now its turn 3, and Coppelius has only accomplished tying up a model that is most likely half his cost, and gotten 0-2 eyes. So maybe turn 4 he will actually be able to do something, but up until then I feel like I'm just missing a heavy beater that can threaten my opponent's crew like mentioned above for the same or similar cost.

[santaclaws01]

Tannen though is slow and fragile. Maybe in a more passive scheme pool, but when I need to be fast, I'm not so sure. I'll try him out maybe sometime.

Coppelius I've played with twice and he's done nothing but make wish I'd taken something better for 10 points (with On Dreaming Wings). To start with his Df4 makes him SUPER fragile, and getting eyes is really hard unless you give him fast and let him charge an isolated enemy (otherwise he'll just get ganged up on and killed). He's not that tanky unless fully eyeballed and his damage is abysmal for a 10ss model (even for an 8 ss model). All he brings to the table is speed, but if you want speed you can get two Bloodwretches for the same cost. I've heard good things about him but I've never been able to make good use of him myself.

Problem with the Scion is that his aura needs you to discard two cards. I'm usually pretty card starved with Dreamer as it is. In my opinion for anything other than the condition removal, I'd rather take Graves.

Not to sound closed off to advice, I appreciate the tips. Just thought I'd share why I haven't tried these things yet.

Have Coppelius go after you opponents scheme runners until he gets a couple Eyeballs. Save you rams and crows for him, because being able to attack again or just deal moderate damage without the flip is very good. He doesn't hit hard because he's a support piece more than a beater. And remember you can have more than 3 Eyeballs, you just only get to a max of +3 Df with them.

My issue with him is that it just takes way too long for me to ramp him up and doesn't amount to much. He is 10ss, which at the least is an Ama no Zako or almost a Mature/Teddy which can do tons of damage. For those 10ss, first turn you tend to double walk to intercept a scheme runner, and then second turn you walk and get to make 1 attack (because they're not going to put their isolated scheme runner within 8" and LoS of you). Now its turn 3, and Coppelius has only accomplished tying up a model that is most likely half his cost, and gotten 0-2 eyes. So maybe turn 4 he will actually be able to do something, but up until then I feel like I'm just missing a heavy beater that can threaten my opponent's crew like mentioned above for the same or similar cost.

Give him fast first turn. Also you can have Daydreams push him up to get him in better position. I can usually either get him in the fight by turn 3, or have him off alone somewhere tying up 3-4 models because they just can't get past his ~ Df 6(I try not to go below this once I get to it) Wp 6 with a 2/3/5 healing flip. Save a high ram and you can get 3 eyes turn 2.

[Whut]

So push him, give him fast, and have him walk up 3 times. Still anything that he wants to charge is going to try its hardest to stay out of LoS, and a lot of the time charging them turn 2 will still leave me eating a charge from a large enemy model. Who do you play against that immediately spreads out and leaves their scheme runners so far away from their main force? If you want to save a high ram, thats one more high card you need to save in addition to the two 10+'s you want to summon Lilitu and Lelu or Lilitu and a Stitched. You can't really bank on having 3 severe cards in your hand first turn I fear.

[lusciousmccabe]

I think Ama No Zako is a pretty good comparison for Coppelius, but if you're not giving him On Dreaming Wings (which you shouldn't) then he's 2ss cheaper. Both models are super fast and reasonably durable and both of them are a bit wasted if you just throw them into melee at the first opportunity. They might look like melee monsters, but a young Nephelim could probably put out a similar amount of damage if you really wanted it to. 

If you're hiring Coppelius give him either Retributions Eye, the Mimic's Blessing or no upgrades. Then use his super fast walk to get a few markers down, comfortable in the knowledge that your opponent's scheme runners are going to have avoid him or risk getting eaten. After he's done that position him for a charge and then use him to tie up a model or two so they can't get rid of your markers, or otherwise score points. He's not amazingly tough, but between the healing and all the horror Duels he takes a certain amount of effort to get rid of. 

If you want an all-out melee Coppelius take summoning Dreamer, walk, do whatever you need to summon him without slow, give him Playtime if you have AP to spare, Accomplice and charge. That should get him comfortably into melee on the first turn and if you fip well for Savour Delicacy he'll be near enough full wounds as well. Alternatively, don't bother with this and just summon a Stitched Together, it requires a lower value card and will probably do way more damage if that's what you're after. 

[Thana.]

I'd say coppelius isn't worth taking. Summoning dreamer doesn't have the luxury of saving high rams and crows just to make coppelius function. Wasting master AP is also a high price to pay to get a weak damage 1 anti scheme runner to do his job.

As to what you do need. Waldgeist and depleted are good buffers while your summoning engine ramps up. I'd drop teddy and rely on summoned stitched togethers and chompy for your damage. I've found that teddy is too fragile to be the only threat on the board as weak damage 3 and 4 models just eat him alive.

wouldn't drop silurids but would first turn summon a single madness to put even more pressure on.

[Whut]

If I choose to take a Depleted or two, would an Illuminated be a smart choice over a Waldgeist? How well does an Illuminated work out when not attacking something with brilliance? I'm thinking of dropping a Silurid cause you're right, they are super expensive.

I'm still not sold on Coppelius, maybe he just doesn't fit my playstyle.

For some background, I'm asking this cause I recently played a fantastic Misaki player and her Diving Charge and Stalking upgrade + assassination trigger (with some lucky crow flips) had me on the back foot as soon as she charged first turn and killed teddy and drained my hand. I had no killing power to retaliate against a Df6 Wp7 12Wd Misaki and Df6 Wp6 10Wd Shadowy Emissary, and felt entirely helpless. I've been thinking if I had a Waldgeist maybe I could have slowed her charge, but even so, Teddy can't kill everything and Stitched are not reliable against Df6.

Basically this mindset I'm temporarily stuck in has me thinking "there's nothing I can take that Misaki can't just assassinate and then charge through" (since she gains AP each time she kills something thanks to the Emissary)

[Rurouni Benshin]

If I choose to take a Depleted or two, would an Illuminated be a smart choice over a Waldgeist? How well does an Illuminated work out when not attacking something with brilliance? I'm thinking of dropping a Silurid cause you're right, they are super expensive.

I'm still not sold on Coppelius, maybe he just doesn't fit my playstyle.

For some background, I'm asking this cause I recently played a fantastic Misaki player and her Diving Charge and Stalking upgrade + assassination trigger (with some lucky crow flips) had me on the back foot as soon as she charged first turn and killed teddy and drained my hand. I had no killing power to retaliate against a Df6 Wp7 12Wd Misaki and Df6 Wp6 10Wd Shadowy Emissary, and felt entirely helpless. I've been thinking if I had a Waldgeist maybe I could have slowed her charge, but even so, Teddy can't kill everything and Stitched are not reliable against Df6.

Basically this mindset I'm temporarily stuck in has me thinking "there's nothing I can take that Misaki can't just assassinate and then charge through" (since she gains AP each time she kills something thanks to the Emissary)

Well, since I'm pretty certain that I was the person you played (Hi Dave, it's Ben!), I'd like to reiterate a couple of things I noticed during the game.  First off, if you're looking for 10 ss models to fill in, I know the Emissary is exactly 10 ss, and from what I've seen, it can tarpit models pretty well with it's ability to create hazardous terrain.  Coupled by that it affects models within 3" of it, it makes a fast moving crew coming towards you think twice about how to maneuver around it. 

In my experience playing against the Dreamer, my opponents spend at least 1 AP moving him up the board.  By doing so, it would increase the range of your summoning, and give your models less space to have to travel.  In just about every game, the Dreamer has walked, summoned 2 things on Turn 1, and "Tucked In" to bring Waking down to 1.  That way, they're set up for summoning 3 things on Turn 2, and bringing out Chompy.  Positioning with the Dreamer is important early on, since you're trying to place models where they are situationally most useful.  In strategies like "Stake a Claim" and "Reconnoiter" where you need to have models further up the board quickly, moving the Dreamer at least once early on in the game is important to get that positioning, and with this Wk 7 and Incorporeal, it'd imagine that it's pretty easy for him.  If you had moved him further up on Turn 1, and then summoned a couple of things, you probably would've had more room to expand your bubble of models, and not force them to crowd around too much, as we saw what had happened to the 2 Alps, Stitched Together, and Lelitu when they were within a single blast marker of each other.

Granted, I too was very fortunate.  If you hadn't flipped the BJ on your attack to paralyze the Emissary, it would've forced me to change tactics.  I'd have had to use Recalled Training on Misaki that same turn, just to be able to clear that many models on a single attack, which could've spared Chompy an additional turn too.  I thought your strategy with the Silurids was spot on.  They kept you in the game for Strategy points, being able to place claim markers almost every turn.  And had you managed to paralyze my Emissary, you most certainly would've gotten 1 VP for the Strategy on turn 2, since I wouldn't have had been able to use Misaki to place a claim marker that very same turn.  Who knows from that point how the game could've ended.

I agree that Coppelius wasn't a huge contributor to your list, but that may have been more situational, since you had him moving towards a corner that I was actively trying to avoid early on.  Pound for pound, if he's going up against a Minion of mine, he'll win the foot race against them.  He's a very popular model to summon in game, gauging from my experiences playing against Dreamer.  Even if you don't get the right triggers to negate "slow" for the first turn, he's still very fast.  Then combine that with "Lead Nightmare", he can move up quicker than some would think.  I'd continue with what you've been doing, with the small modifications to Dreamer, and see how that goes for you.  Maybe try the Emissary as well?

Hope that helps!

 

[Rurouni Benshin]

Btw, playing "Stake a Claim" on Corner Deployment is the hardest set up for that strategy.  All models are traveling the furthest distance possible, and unless you have assistance with moving up faster, scoring that first point on Turn 2 is extremely difficult.

Also, I thought I had mentioned this on Saturday, but the errata for Emissary's Conflux of Thunder upgrade for Misaki gaining AP per model killed was changed so that she can only gain 1 additional AP per turn, regardless of how many models she killed in a single turn.  If this had been prior to the errata, she'd have been far more ridiculous(ly broken). *lol*

[Shadowfane]

Also (and I'm only mentioning this because it isn't clear from what you said whether you played it this way or not) don't forget that the extra AP for Misaki via conflux of thunder is only once per turn now, as of the recent FAQ

Edited November 30, 2015 by Shadowfane

[Whut]

HI Ben!  Will be reading through your comment in a sec. Thanks for the help!

Edit:

Yes, the Emissary I have definitely been thinking of trying. I've been scared to use it outside of strategies like Turf War or without Masters like Zoraida and Collodi who can move enemy models into the markers, but I'll give it a try to see how it works out.

You're right that my positioning screwed me. Even if the paralyze had worked, I completely forgot that Misaki also has an attack with blasts which would have ended poorly for me either way. I'm sure as I get more experience I'll get better at this, as currently I often lose models that are just summoned and have 1-3 wounds.

What I was referring to about Misaki's AP is the fact that she can (with Fast from Yu) walk, Charge ignoring terrain and models, and if she kills the target, charge again even deeper in my lines. Even without a kill, she can do the same if she doesn't walk. It's terrifying. Again, it's an experience thing. I'm sure I'll find a way to counter play eventually

Edited November 30, 2015 by Whut