M2e Colette

[Nikodemus]

9 hours ago, Primarch said:

Well, having read the last few pages, this sucks.  I haven't played since 1E, so after jumping back in tonight, I had no idea how to play Colette anymore.  I played against Ten Thunders crew with 3 Samurai that just gunned me down super easily.  I barely remembered any of the rules from the past which is a good thing I guess, since everything is different now.

Collette
Casandra
3 Mannequins

3 Performers

2 Coryphee

Duet

Some blonde gal with 2 pistols, cant remember her name, and I have the old metal models so the pictures don't entirely matchup.

Anyway, I was fairly ran over though did some damage in the process.  Totally different than I remember the Collette crew playing, and reading here, not many folks consider that list of models mostly worth using anymore.  Guess I will see what's up with my Outcast or Neverborn crews?  Lol...

For what its worth, 3x Samurai in a list is pretty rubbish going by internet wisdom. Same internet wisdom that says Colette is rubbish. I wouldn't say they counter your list all that hard. Safe to say Colette is complex to pick up and you played your first game of 2e. She's certainly not queen of the roost anymore, but based on what little you wrote it sounds like you were outplayed fair 'n square. Which is to be expected from your first full game.

By all means look elsewhere if you're not feeling it for Colette anymore, and she might be off the case if you're into really serious tournament play. Doesn't mean she isn't fun to play and kick ass and win games with still, though.

[retnab]

The Kandara-esque upgrade swapping Enforcer could be really cool, but to get that sweet benefit from Audience Participation I'd love to see the hypothetical knife throwers be Minions.  There's still so much we could do in the Showgirls category, things like an Amina-lite distraction/control piece (whatever the right term for waitress there would be?), some kind of Beast handler (hello Marcus synergy, hopefully Enforcer to also hold Blade & Claw), someone with Chatty (how do the Showgirls not already have this?  I know Angelica's already the barker but I'm sure we could get this in there somewhere), something that stops enemies from removing your scheme markers within x" of them, etc.

[Jinn]

3 hours ago, dancater said:

All good points WWHSD.

You could make the model Rare 2 Enforcer with 2 unique upgrades each with the name Stage Costume - one Blades and Steel say and the other Knives and Cloak then have the base enforcer card include a (1) tactical action called Change for the Next Act - model can switch Stage Costume upgrades.

Then have some selection of the various special rules and attack actions mentioned.

Also give the model By the Mistresses Direction when this model is in a crew lead by a Showgirl master it gains +(insert useful suit here, probably tomes or  mask or even both) to all duels when it is focused.  This would mean that the models benefit in any Colette crew but gain extra benefit with her new upgrade as well.

 

1 hour ago, retnab said:

The Kandara-esque upgrade swapping Enforcer could be really cool, but to get that sweet benefit from Audience Participation I'd love to see the hypothetical knife throwers be Minions.

I'm guessing @dancater forgot just how bad Colette's new upgrades actually are.

[WWHSD]

2 hours ago, Jinn said:

 

I'm guessing @dancater forgot just how bad Colette's new upgrades actually are.

Audience Participation would be great if there was a cheapish Showgirl Minion that was worth focusing (and wants to stay within 8 of Colette) and that could turn other models into Minions.

[dancater]

Good point as well could not make the Showgirls enforcers as Audience Participation would not work, they would need to be minions which means no upgrades without special rules.

7 hours ago, Jinn said:

 

I'm guessing @dancater forgot just how bad Colette's new upgrades actually are.

Nope, did not forget.  They are awful.  Probably in the end unrecoverable, it would take more work to include models and rules to make the upgrades work as they currently stand then to simply junk them.  

Having said that I was trying to think of ways to at least try and get a little mileage out of them, maybe see if they could be squeezed for at least fun casual play.  The idea is to try and make a Showgirl which stands independently as really useful and fills a niche, and then also has some synergy with the new upgrades to see if anything improves the outlook - I mean almost anything would improve them. 

Audience Participation is such a weird upgrade, its really like a TT upgrade wandered into the Star Theater and started sitting in the back throwing peanuts and sarcastic comments.  It simply does not fit in Showgirls at all, granting focus to a collection of only Showgirl, only Minions when these models barely gain any advantage from focus in the first place.  Ironically the Showgirl minion which may, and I mean may, benefit from focus the most is the one Colette must take as a merc, is under powered even before the merc tax and is TT, the Oiran.  Without a plethora of good new Showgirl minions or a new way of 'turning' minions into Showgirls its hopeless and the first option is pure model bloat while the second is a band aid likely to cause more trouble than it solves.

As for the Dancing Blade, yes its a ridiculous reach to try and make it work.  It by no means makes Colette's melee/quasi ranged attack viable and with all the trigger discount abilities emerging Colette is already far to vulnerable to be front line.  It makes a (0) power I rarely used into a (1) power if you discard a scheme marker (exactly what Colette needs to hope to survive a counter-attack) and then hands out Slow; so in effect you are trading one master AP and a scheme marker to give Slow (denying them 1 AP) to one opponent - if you hit and if they do not mitigate the damage.  It would be laughable except that honestly Colette's AP is kind of useless outside of the now limited Prompt (I firmly agree Colette should not be a prompt engine, but she needs something else instead and these upgrades are not that something), as it is it is merely worth a chuckle.

So I acknowledge this is probably a fools errand but its also an experimental thought project, hopefully the least I achieve is stimulating conversation which highlights (1) Colette's weaknesses and how bad the new B5 upgrades are for her and (2) that the Star Theater troupe really needs a mid-range damage dealing/absorption model.  Hopefully the forum-wraiths in Wyrd take note and either in errata, new releases or an upcoming 3E some of our thoughts and ideas help out in re-balancing my favorite master and crew and one which I feel highlights like nothing else what makes Malifaux unlike any other war game.  I mean its a functional and competitive (at least it was) war gaming band of dancing girls.   

[Primarch]

9 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

For what its worth, 3x Samurai in a list is pretty rubbish going by internet wisdom. Same internet wisdom that says Colette is rubbish. I wouldn't say they counter your list all that hard. Safe to say Colette is complex to pick up and you played your first game of 2e. She's certainly not queen of the roost anymore, but based on what little you wrote it sounds like you were outplayed fair 'n square. Which is to be expected from your first full game.

By all means look elsewhere if you're not feeling it for Colette anymore, and she might be off the case if you're into really serious tournament play. Doesn't mean she isn't fun to play and kick ass and win games with still, though.

It was the other guy's first game of Malifaux ever.  I'm not sure I was entirely outplayed, considering all he has to do is get within like 14, and flip 4 cards to hit, then do pretty decent damage.  He also engaged me with the guy with the Tetsubo(sp) and shot my Duet 2 more times, only hitting her(luck I know) over and over until she was dead. 

In the end, I like the fluff and cool factor, but I don't like getting manhandled without any real outs.  What happened to the spell that basically removed an enemy model when you got a bit lucky on some flips?  I don't see that one at all.  Summoning a Dove is a 15 now?  Was it that high before?  She's the only painted crew I have, but the models listed don't seem to be the way to run her anymore, it sounds a lot like what 40k went to with a bunch of models from different crews instead of doing an all Collette based showgirl crew.  Fine I guess, I just don't have any of those models.

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, Primarch said:

I'm not sure I was entirely outplayed, considering all he has to do is get within like 14, and flip 4 cards to hit, then do pretty decent damage.

If that’s the case, you might want to make sure that you are playing with enough terrain that breaks up line of sight. Games of Malifaux without enough terrain are notorious for being lopsided in favor of shooty crews.

[Primarch]

33 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

If that’s the case, you might want to make sure that you are playing with enough terrain that breaks up line of sight. Games of Malifaux without enough terrain are notorious for being lopsided in favor of shooty crews.

Yeah, we did have a good bit, but maybe not quite enough.  There were some avenues for shooting, but good places to hide as well.  The issue with the Duet was that I ran out and engaged one Samurai and killed it, but that left me in range of his other Samurai and then he just went on a really good streak of flipping cards and finished me off.

 

[Adran]

On 25/11/2017 at 10:23 PM, Primarch said:

It was the other guy's first game of Malifaux ever.  I'm not sure I was entirely outplayed, considering all he has to do is get within like 14, and flip 4 cards to hit, then do pretty decent damage.  He also engaged me with the guy with the Tetsubo(sp) and shot my Duet 2 more times, only hitting her(luck I know) over and over until she was dead. 

In the end, I like the fluff and cool factor, but I don't like getting manhandled without any real outs.  What happened to the spell that basically removed an enemy model when you got a bit lucky on some flips?  I don't see that one at all.  Summoning a Dove is a 15 now?  Was it that high before?  She's the only painted crew I have, but the models listed don't seem to be the way to run her anymore, it sounds a lot like what 40k went to with a bunch of models from different crews instead of doing an all Collette based showgirl crew.  Fine I guess, I just don't have any of those models.

Colette has changed a huge amount in what she does from her first edition version. She still doesn't like direct engagement, but her tricks now are a lot more about scheme markers and victory points. 

I needed to learn a completely different way of playing her, and I think you will have too to. The Convict gun slinger (miss demeanor) is the figure you're talkign about I think. 

 

I don't know anyone who uses 3 manniquins, and you no longer get them free when you hire a performer so you don't need matchign numbers.. 

In relation to your actual game, one thing you could ahve doen was use the performers to draw the samurai towards you, and disrupted their lien that way. Samurai have the downside that if the miss with their gun, they hit themselves, so targettign models like the duet is a huge risk for them (although one of the samurai has an upgrade that means it won't take wounds).  If you are facing them, saving high cards to make their shots miss is a very efficient way of dealing with them. 

Colette really needs to focus on scoring her VPs and denying the enemy their Vps, 

 

 

 

[KingCrow]

Played a game with Colette at a tournament today using her Dancing Saber upgrade and won 10-2 (also won the whole tournamnet).  The strategy was Ply for Information and the schemes were Surround Them, Inescapable Trap, Show of Force, Search the Ruins and Take Prisoner.  I chose Show of Force and Search the Ruins. 

The list was 

Colette with The Dancing Blade, A Lady's Secret and Caberet Choreography - 3 stones (Could easily get rid of CC but I wanted to experiment with it.  I usually had 1 bird available on the board the whole game)

Amina with Imbued Protection and Warding Runes

Carlos with Stunt double and PP

Johan

Union Steamfitter

Performer

Arcane Effigy

Started off with summoning a couple birds and a prompt and then every turn after that, I was attacking.  With her applying burning or getting a card, min damage of 2 and that auto slow, it was VERY easy to control the AP of the enemy crew.  Amina was amazing at controlling as she usually does and PP always gave me a marker within 8 inches.  I would prompt maybe once every other turn or so to get something in better positions but being able to get the trigger on her Saber for a free attack and another slow at 8 inches away is GOOD.  A lot of people have said how terrible the upgrade is but after a few games with using it, I am very impressed.  With Colette basically being unable to die due to her triggers and the Armor +1 from the Steamfitter, she was nigh unkillable.  Plus, Johan can heal about half the crew.  Now saying that, I would only take this into a heavy interact game which is what Colette likes to play.  

[KingCrow]

Posted this on the Facebook page but was curious about the forums thoughts on this - 

If Colette gets the trigger on her "A Lady's Secret" upgrade to take her Sabre Trick action again, can she discard a scheme marker using the Dancing Sabre upgrade to give the target Slow? I'm thinking maybe no because she's not changing the action from a 0 AP to a 1 AP attack but not sure. 

Someone did point out that the AP count doesn't matter because it's a trigger giving a free attack so you could still technically discard a scheme marker to get a free 1AP attack that Slows or a free 0AP attack. 

What do people think?