Fire Immuto Multiple Times

[PeregrineFalcon]

Excuse me if this has been answered before, but this came up last night. 

Had a Fated casting a spell and applying a fire immuto, this knowing that the Resist (i.e. TN was a 15WP). So he just pumped up his spell TN until it reached 15. He was pumping out Burning +5 and +6 at times. It seemed odd but had me wondering am I dealing with magic differently. The book just says the spells TN and targets Resist TN it doesn't say you have to add or that its two separate duels (which I doubt at all being true).

There seems to be no reason to not do this every time as long as you know you have the card to cheat. Its seems like there is very little negative to the fire immuto (since there is no limit).

So with that said does it make sense? He was only doing 2 dmg or so but putting +6 burning is pretty rough for any NPC especially if its already activated.

Thanks and the players had a blast (see what I did there) with the Halloween one-shot, highly recommend it!

[Mason]

That's certainly possible, but +5 or +6 Burning is an increased of +10 or +12 to the spell's TN, which get the relatively easy to cast Elemental Projectile and Elemental strike up to high-ish TNs of 13 or 15. Now, that can certainly be dropped with other Immuto, which makes for some very dangerous spells. Any NPC hit with a full-powered fire spell is going to be in a world of hurt if they can't put themselves out (or have friends to help put them out). 

The Fire Magia is certainly something that's on my radar, so I'm interested in seeing how it's been working out for other fatemasters and players.

[PeregrineFalcon]

That's certainly possible, but +5 or +6 Burning is an increased of +10 or +12 to the spell's TN, which get the relatively easy to cast Elemental Projectile and Elemental strike up to high-ish TNs of 13 or 15. Now, that can certainly be dropped with other Immuto, which makes for some very dangerous spells. Any NPC hit with a full-powered fire spell is going to be in a world of hurt if they can't put themselves out (or have friends to help put them out). 

The Fire Magia is certainly something that's on my radar, so I'm interested in seeing how it's been working out for other fatemasters and players.

Yup that's exactly what he was running. Basically the Carver was forcing Wp15 to hit and he was pumping it up knowing that to even hit he has to hit a 15 so why not pump it up regardless (and dropping it with another). I had no issue with it as a one-shot but if that was a character long term I'd def. have to come up with some unique ways of dealing with it for my NPCs.

The other thing is that both the Black Blood Shaman (Zyphon) and Carver always activated early so were never able to put the burning out (or have a friend do it).

It would be interesting if increasing above some limit started forcing the character to take burning him/herself unless she had a talent to mitigate.

[solkan]

It sounds like the issue is that if you know the defense of the attack is going to be high, there's just no downside to piling on extra modifiers to the target number.

Working with the available game mechanics, about all you could really do is change the system so that it applies a negative modifier to the casting stat instead of changing the target number.  So that +5 Burning is Ca X-10 TN 3 Rst: Wp, and even that looks kind of funny.

Maybe splitting the penalty in half, so that +X Burning is -X to the casting attribute, and +X to the target number, instead?

 

Edited October 28, 2015 by solkan

[PeregrineFalcon]

It sounds like the issue is that if you know the defense of the attack is going to be high, there's just no downside to piling on extra modifiers to the target number.

Working with the available game mechanics, about all you could really do is change the system so that it applies a negative modifier to the casting stat instead of changing the target number.  So that +5 Burning is Ca X-10 TN 3 Rst: Wp, and even that looks kind of funny.

 

 

Well of course but there is no way to hide the TN when NPCs don't flip cards. The fated have to know what to cheat to.

[solkan]

Sure, no disputing the fact that the players are going to know what they need to hit.

The point being that if it's supposed to be harder to light the bad guy on fire, then it should be harder to light the bad guy on fire; and that's not the case if the bad guy was already hard to light on fire to begin with.  Hence the suggestion to apply the modifier as a penalty to the player's casting score (making it harder to light anyone on fire) instead of modifying the target number (just making easily combustible people harder to light on fire).

 

[EnternalVoid]

The easiest way to psuedo fix it as a Fatemaster is to cap it at something like +3 or +4 burning.  Likely +3.  Some of the other immuto don't get any bonus for stacking, though they have a harsher positive to TN to start with.  I had a character when we were testing it that would regularly do that, beefing the the burning up so it was doing horrible amounts of damage.  If you cap it they pump it up to max against the hard targets but at least the hard targets might be able to take those hits several times.

The other option we discussed was to make it a growing number.  Like first rank increases the TN by 1, second time increases it by TN +2, third time increases it by TN +3.  So trying to do burning +3 would increase the TN by +6, but if you go to burning +4 the TN would be increased by +10. 

The problem is in the core rules, as most immutos do not equate to strait damage, save the increase damage immuto but it has a max.  Technically you can tailor any spell you have to get max results if you know the number you are aiming for, just most do not have such a direct result.

[kanhead]

From my perspective it has been a bit of a problem.  See my post here: http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/111657-combat-and-new-fated/ and the player post here: http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/111656-magic-am-i-doing-it-wrong-a-minmaxr-or-just-really-dangerous/

The solution I have had is to fudge the mechanics (play with initiative order or make it easier to remove fire conditions) or create a narrative space that defrays the powerful abilities (risk of explosion making the ability unusable, heavy rain or nearby water reducing the condition & Guild witch hunters nearby).  I have an escalating story in the local ragsheet that updates whenever the magic user is spotted using magic in public.  It helps that the player is aware of it and tends to pull back a little.

In game make it a risk by having the heavy hitters sitting back to counter charge and/or introduce some ranged elements to give other Fated a chance.  You can manage it with a bit of careful planning and Fatemaster license. 

Aside from the above I think it is broken and should either have a cap, an escalating TN (+2 for every additional burning token) or be delayed a little in resolution. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

Great recommendations! Because this is a one-shot I had less at my disposal. However, because they used so much magic I did make sure that at the end the Guild gave them less money for a bounty.

I also did make sure to rush my NPCs up towards the end and set a bridge a blaze forcing every player on the bridge to also take some burning. So it was something I could deal with but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a rule somewhere.

I like the escalating TN but really prefer some sort of negative in favor of letting players do what they want to. For something as simple as you are engulfed like a Phoenix rising in flames and everyone within 6" takes half the burning of something. Where so much energy was built up that it forces some sort of lasting negative effect for that combat. Like a burning condition that can't even be put out or something even. I dunno, random ideas. 

Glad I asked

[zeeblee]

Honestly, the elemental attacks may need higher base TNs as they are the primary way to deliver Elemental Immuto.  Also, if an Expunge type action were to show up, then I see Poison becoming the go-to damage Immuto over Fire as you can stack twice as much for the same TN.  Ultimately I think instituting maximums may be a good route.  For now the best things you can do are:

1. Strip built-in suits from your casters
2. Do things that force discards
3. Force Horror duels on the players via Terrifying or other effects (tends to force them to cheat)
4. Use enemies/settings which force flips to prevent cheating (or just outright have anti-cheating rules)
5. Utilize enemies who are immune to the caster's abilities (Fire Gamin are immune to Burning for example)
6. Utilize larger groups of enemies (each player still usually only gets two actions per round, so at most that's two dead enemies per person if they can 1-shot).  Singular bosses are pretty screwed (especially if the players abuse things like Paralyze
7. Send enemies in waves
8. Make killing the "wrong" answer to the situation (waves of undead won't stop unless they barricade the tunnel)
9. Don't ever expect a fight full of Minions to ever feel dangerous.  In that realm the players are superheroes.  Instead trust Enforcer mobs to be a more even/risky fight

I just did a quick breeze through the Fatemaster Almanac, and I honestly think Magia Terrifying Aura or  Immuto-Elemental-Terror might be the strongest player abilities for neutering most enemies in combat since it requires very little TN investment to rocket them past even most Enforcer WP stats.  Luckily Terrifying Aura begins with a high TN of 12, and linking it to an attack via Terror means you have to hit first (though for an equal Horror TN you only need a TN8 Elemental Projectile...)