45 SS Seamus/Nico

[Obeisance]

So I have a Malifaux tourney in two weeks. My first one in 2E. I dabbled a little in 1E years ago, but I've recently only just got back in. Only played a few games and don't really have the time to do any testing.

Tournament is..

45 SS, two set lists with no restrictions on characters/etc. Set schemes per round.

Round 1 - Standard deployment, Reckoning. Schemes are Line in the Sand, Distract, Assassination Plant Evidence, Outflank.

Round 2 - Close deployment, Turf War. Schemes are Line in the Sand, Distract, Vendetta, Bodyguard, Entourage.

Round 3 - Flank deployment, Reconnoitre. Schemes are Line in the Sand, Breakthrough, Distract, Entourage, Plant Evidence.

Round 4 - Corner deployment, Squatter's Rights. Schemes are Line in the Sand, Distract, Bodyguard, Frame for Murder, Make them Suffer.

...

I'm thinking I'm just going to one-list Seamus. I can take a second crew with him leading it, but I don't know exactly what he needs to cover. Probably ARM skew and guns at a guess.

At the moment I'm playing:

Seamus, Bag o' Tools, Red Chappel Killer.

Copycat Killer

Madame Sybelle, Bleeding Tongue.

2 Necropunks

3 Rotten Belles

Nurse

Cache of 4

I feel like it's lacking heavy hitters. I can't get a Transmortis box locally. Boo.

What would you do to change my list and what schemes do you think my crew will favour?

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2015 by Obeisance

[Fetid Strumpet]

I do approve of the Bag, but only in specific matches. I don't feel there are enough scheme marker dependent scenarios in the above list to justify bringing it, at least to me.

If it were me and I had to run 1 list (which I wouldn't) I'd bring something more like this:

 

Seamus: Red Chapel Killer, Sinister Reputation, (And the Hat or Decaying Aura, depending on play style and local meta)

CCK

Madam Sybelle: Not Too Banged Up

Yin

3 Rotten Belles

Nurse

5 Stones

 

I'm not too happy about 3 Belles, but I couldn't think of anything better. You could replace 1 with a Necro Punk, but for myself I find that since you are bringing Sybelle Belles can often just serve as your scheme runners, and more WP duels give Seamus more survivability. In addition, with Sinister Reputation Seamus, your rotten belles can often better take advantage of the Undress action.

[Alexifer]

If you have access to the models, I would replace one of the belles with a dead doxie and go with 4 stones.  You could also (again, if you can get the model or a good proxy) use Jaakuna Ubume.  She has a weaker lure (Ca 6) but her melee attacks target Wp.  It only does one point of damage but it gives out slow on a crow.  What you're really bringing her for is the fact she creates a 3" aura of hazardous terrain that you can lure people into for free damage.  She's also Manipulative, which IMO is better than Terror because you don't become immune to it by succeeding.  She's a little slow with a Wk 4 but she's incorporeal so terrain isn't an issue.  She has (for ressers) a good ranged attack with a 2/3/4B damage spread with a mask trigger to keep the target from charging, but only at Ca4.  She also has Denial of Sanzu for a 0 action which keeps models from declaring walk actions.  She's an area denial model, not really an attacker, but with Seamus possibly giving things -2 Wp and Yin giving something a neg twist to Wp duels, she can be quite devastating.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Alexifer
Spelling

[Alexifer]

Also, with the list you've created, Reckoning (Round 1) could really be your downfall.

[Kogan Style]

Whoever flipped those scheme pools should check their deck - Distract EVERY round? From a fun perspective if I was  a TO I would put more variation in as atm you are playing with 2 schemes constant and only the other 3 changing. Possibly something you could raise with them to see if they could adjust it. 

As it stands I really like Fetid's list, without knowing your model collection its hard to suggest what to take (that you have) but lets try!

Round 1 - Reckoning. I would take Bag Seamus and Bleeding Tongue Sybelle and go for Assassinate (you have  trigger on Sybelle and  for CCK plus Seamus' killing potential) Bag Seamus can also complete Plant Evidence if the opponent has a model close to some terrain (thanks to  trigger on the bag) or he/the belles can drop some too. 

List wise:

Seamus - Bag, Red Chapel, Decaying Aura/Hat depending on whether you think the opponent will try to assassinate Seamus

Sybelle - Bleeding Tongue

Carrion Emissary - Carrion Conflux

CCK

2 Belles

1 Nurse

7ss cache

 

Round 2 - Turf War. Entourage is very easy due to Teleporting Seamus and the fact you are only 12" away from his deployment zone at the start of the game. Depending on the Opposing master/crew I would look at Distract or Vendetta using either Sybelle or a Belle (drugged up by a Nurse can do wonders for a surprise Vendetta) 

I would most likely run the same list as before, possibly swapping out Bag for Sinister Rep (to help the Nurse slam Paralyse into enemy models) The Emissary can block off lanes of movement thanks to its Shards action

 

Round 3 - I think this is the hardest round to call as the schemes require you to get into the opponent's half and try to deny him quarters while holding enough of your own that you can still score. Here I would use another list

Seamus - Bag, Red Chapel + One other Upgrade of your choice. All of the schemes (bar Entourage) are interact schemes so being able to use the bag to deny interacts will mess up their game all day long. Sybelle with  deathmark can make your opponents models peons which means they won't score for the strategy (same is true for Turf War) 

Sybelle - Bleeding Tongue, Not too Banged up for extra "pulling" power

CCK

2 Rotten Belles

1 Nurse

2 Necropunks for Scheme running, table quarter taking and general hardiness

6/7 ss cache depending on upgrades

 

Round 4 - Squatter's Rights. I'd pick whichever list you felt more comfortable with. Emissary can fly to get to the tougher to reach squat markers, but the Necropunks can (usually) leap there. Sybelle with Obey can walk up to an opponents model and force them to interact, flipping the marker back for you after they have spent all that effort claiming the marker in the first place!

Scheme wise: Make Them Suffer is a Seamus Scheme, assuming he can land the kill-shot. Sybelle can help out with her Whip but you may find distract easier as you know where some of his models may be going. I'd toss Bodyguard on Sybelle as an option and make sure the Nurse was close enough to throw an emergency paralyse and heal on her if it came to it. I don't like Frame for Murder but you could go that route if you wanted.

Hope that helps!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Obeisance]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

I've been playing some Seamus and Nicodem. Man, Nicodem is super fun. So is Seamus. I feel like I have an "OK" handle on the game mechanics now but I'm having issues building lists. 45SS really does seem like a weird number now.

List submissions are tomorrow.

List #1

Seamus - Bag O' Tools, Red Chapel Killer

Copycat Killer

Madam Sybelle- Bleeding Tongue

3 Rotten Belles

Nurse

2 Crooligans

45 (42) with a pool of 6.

Do I need less random things and more heavy hitters?

...

List #2

Nicodem - Undertaker, Maniacal Laugh

Mortimer - Corpse Bloat

2 Crooligans

Valedictorian

Toshiro

Vulture

45 (43) with a pool of 5.

I'm not sure about Toshiro. I've been thinking about taking Imazu/Yin over Valedictorian/Toshiro. But meh. Toshiro is weird. Sure he hands out fast, but he's really only giving + flips to hit for things I summon, which, I suppose, isn't terrible. I think I need I Love My Master.

Is Yin any good? I don't think Bette works well with Nicodem. Having to hold high cards I need for summoning seems pants.

...

 

Some tips on how to change my lists would be great. And here's a pool of additional models I own:

Yin, Imazu, Transmortis,Crooligans, Punk Zombies, McMourning's box set, Bette Noir, Necropunks, Canine Remains. Everything in the Nicodem and Seamus boxes.

I really need to play more.

 

 

[Adran]

Personally I prefere Necropunks to cruligans, but in this sort of fixed list set up, you probably want variety to the list, and have 1 of each rather than 2 of the same. 

I don't see either list as particually good for reckoning. 

 

What I would do for this sort of tournament is make a list that you want for each game (so 4 lists). The start trying to merge 2 or 3 lists together so you have kept the reason you want that list for the games. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not sure in the Seamus list why 2 crooligans and the bag, and 3 belles. In my opinion you take the bag to drop scheme markers unopposed, or you are trying an old Chicago style belle spam, which your list isn't.

If you are using Seamus for reckoning and you are actually going to try to kill things with him, why no decaying aura? It not required, but without it Seamus tends to be relegated going after models most players don't bring in a reckoning game, though with fixed list it might be a little easier. I'm fine with that role, but I mostly take sinister rep. With the bag you NEED for Seamus to be using it or you lose value on your investment, and SS users, by preventing dmg, can cancel many of the bag's triggers if they don't take dmg.

3 belles and 2 crooligans... And no not too banged up?

iIf you are sold on the bag, drop crooligans in Seamus list for Yin. Consider dropping 1 belle, though : belles for scheme running is solid.

[Obeisance]

Really, the only reason I'm taking the Bag is for decent damage output on Seamus. The triggers are just gravy.

As for why which lists have what? I'm not really sure.

I'm very much noobtacular.

[MEGAHORSE]

Really, the only reason I'm taking the Bag is for decent damage output on Seamus. The triggers are just gravy.

As for why which lists have what? I'm not really sure.

I'm very much noobtacular.

Have you seen Seamus's gun? It's the first weapon on the back of his cards. I dont know why you are so sold on the bag. Melee is not really where Seamus wants to be. He's quite squishy if they commit anything to him. He likes to pop in and snipe people at 4 min damage, then have CCK teleport in and finish them off if they didnt just get smashed in. Seamus isn't a beaty face list. He excels at range and board control. Belles, Yin, and Sybelle help with this by ruining positioning and pushing in alot of wp duels, which Seamus heals from

Edited November 9, 2015 by gromgrom

[huntroll]

I'd take something like these:

Resurrectionists
45ss Crew

Nicodem -- 6ss
 +Undertaker - 1ss
 +Maniacal Laugh - 1ss

Chiaki The Niece - 6ss
 +Pull Of The Grave - 1ss

Izamu The Armor - 10ss
 +Decaying Aura - 2ss

Mortimer - 9ss
 +Corpse Bloat - 2ss

Nurse - 5ss

Rotten Belle - 5ss

Chiaki messes with the enemy AP by spamming slow and could remove conditions from your models. Nurse is awesome and you can't summon her, I find it useful to start with at least one Belle, if it was 50 points I would have added another one, Nico is the master where you are kinda free to go overboard with support models in my (a bit limited) experience. Izamu could be switched for the Valedictorian, but Nico's support pretty much solves all of his weaknesses. Decaying Aura can be dropped to make place for Unnerving Aura and/or Love Thy Master.

For Seamus:

Resurrectionists
45ss Crew

Seamus -- 7ss
 +Mad Haberdasher - 2ss
 +Sinister Reputation - 1ss
 +Red Chapel Killer - 1ss

Copycat Killer - 3ss

Madame Sybelle - 8ss
 +Bleeding Tongue - 1ss
 +Not Too Banged Up - 1ss

Nurse - 5ss

Rotten Belle - 5ss

Rotten Belle - 5ss

Yin The Penangalan - 8ss
 +Unnerving Aura - 1ss

Not really fond of Seamus to be honest, althought Strumpet's post and the podcasts with him always make me want to play him, but I dislike two of his best upgrades being limited. Sinister Reputation's aura is awesome, but if you take it, your opponents can just engage him and make your life harder. Not 100% sure about Bleeding Tongue and Red Chapel Killer, but both upgrades can be handy in certain situations.
Haven't tried Yin before (she is on my list though, but I've had a one year hiatus and almost exclusively played McFilthy before), so I might switch her for the Valedictiorian, she also benefits from Sinister Reputation, has an amazing survivability so she can tarpit well, but she is more mobile, has better hitting power, and requires less dragging from the Belles to get where she wants to be. Bishop might be another good option, although even more expensive alternative, but a potential 4 hits with built-in crit strike against Wp debuffed by Sinister Reputation sounds painful. Or you could even take Datsue Ba with one of her upgrades for summonable LoS blocking and more Wp targeting attacks. But from the 4 big models mentioned above I only have real play experience with the Valedictorian (and she performs quite well), the others are just Theoryfauxing.

[Fetid Strumpet]

If your nurse is still alive they can't engage Seamus if she is in range. If she walks up and Hallucinogens Seamus, and then uses accomplice, Seamus will at minimum get 3 ML7 min dmg 3 attacks, and if he gets lucky with Crows, or spends SS to make it happen that number can jump to 6 ML7 min dmg 3 attacks.

Additionally, they have to approach him from a vector that he can't use his Bored Now trigger to escape from, nor engage him if he has Red Chapel killer with a corpse nearby. Or he will just Back Ally away. I Tend to find, for that reason, that Red Chapel Killer is a must take upgrade outside of very specialized builds.

The Valedictorian is a good model, and can work well with Seamus because of her 0 action WP duel which denies triggers. I tend to find that Yin is just better for cheaper.

Datsue-ba is another good model, as Ant, one of the UKs recognized better Resser players swears by her. I'm not sure if she is a great idea for a new player in a tournament setting, but she could be a good option.

[huntroll]

If your nurse is still alive they can't engage Seamus if she is in range. If she walks up and Hallucinogens Seamus, and then uses accomplice, Seamus will at minimum get 3 ML7 min dmg 3 attacks, and if he gets lucky with Crows, or spends SS to make it happen that number can jump to 6 ML7 min dmg 3 attacks.

Additionally, they have to approach him from a vector that he can't use his Bored Now trigger to escape from, nor engage him if he has Red Chapel killer with a corpse nearby. Or he will just Back Ally away. I Tend to find, for that reason, that Red Chapel Killer is a must take upgrade outside of very specialized builds.

The Valedictorian is a good model, and can work well with Seamus because of her 0 action WP duel which denies triggers. I tend to find that Yin is just better for cheaper.

Datsue-ba is another good model, as Ant, one of the UKs recognized better Resser players swears by her. I'm not sure if she is a great idea for a new player in a tournament setting, but she could be a good option.

I know about the Hallucinogen trick, but it won't work against models with a melee range bigger than 1" if they are positioned properly. In that case, you have to rely on Lures, Back Alley, or walking closer to make a Back Hand attack and pushing out of melee (if its even possible, depending on positioning). Unless your enemy has a 4" melee range, then your only hope is trying to disengage, good luck on that with Df4.
 

[Fetid Strumpet]

As far as I know there is only 1 model in the game with a 4" melee range, and again if I'm remembering correctly she only has ml5.

But the point remains if your belles, positioning, red chapel killer, or just paralyzing them with the nurse doesn't work, at that point you've probably been out played. Everything in the game is vulnerable to that. :)

[Adran]

Strictly, there are 3 models that can have rg 4. (TT brothers and Waldgiest)

but if they are more than 1" from Seamus and you have a nurse, you have a very good chance to mean that they can't make a disengaging strike. ( Of her triggers, 1 out right removes their engagement range (paralysis) 1 prevents them declaring disengaging strikes (its not a walk or an interact action), and one puts the strike on ). 

 

I had a lot of fun at the weekend with Seamus' corpse bloating, which was pretty good crowd control and Healing. I only won 1 of the 4 games thought, so be warned, it might not be the best tactic. 

[Obeisance]

Based on people's opinions, the lists I submitted are thus:

 

Nicodem - Love Thy Master, Undertaker, Maniacal Laugh
Vulture
Mortimer - Corpse Bloat
Crooligan
Crooligan
Imazu - Decaying Aura
Nurse
45 (42, cache of 6)

Seamus - Red Chapel Killer, Mad Haberdasher, Sinister Reputation
Copycat Killer
Madam Sybelle - Bleeding Tongue, Not Too Banged Up
Rotten Belle
Rotten Belle
Yin - Unnerving Aura
45 (41, cache of 7)

Feels suuuuuper ugrade heavy.

[Obeisance]

Nicodem - Love Thy Master, Undertaker, Maniacal Laugh
Vulture
Mortimer - Corpse Bloat
Crooligan
Crooligan
Imazu - Decaying Aura
Nurse
45 (42, cache of 6)

Seamus - Red Chappel Killer, Mad Haberdasher, Sinister Reputation
Copycat Killer
Madam Sybelle - Bleeding Tongue, Not Too Banged Up
Rotten Belle
Rotten Belle
Nurse
Yin - Unnerving Aura
45 (41, cache of 7)

[Obeisance]

So it was a learning experience for sure.

Rail Golem with Hoffman = ugh. Nurse activating and paralysing both Hoffman and the Golem because they were near Seamus was spectacular.

Learning that Rasputina has some dudes that have an aura that shuts off Hard to Wound and Armour incredibly easily was horrifying. Nicodem's entire list functions on those two abilities. Also I cannot believe the Ice Pillars aren't destructible anymore. That's beyond ridiculous. My entire crew was bottlenecked between a building and a rock in my (close) deployment zone.

I had Perdita one-round Imazu. And anything she pointed her guns at. Everything died. Was raised. Died again. And again.

Also managed to out-attrition Dreamer which was neat. Nearly killed him with fast Imazu, too. Randomly made a Belle and yanked Angel Eyes to a 5 damage fall. She survived, though. Boo.

...

It was a day of being surprised by what things did. Or things not working how I expected and being shot to death. Everyone could just turn off/ignore armour. Ignore fear. Ignore paralysed. 

 

 

 

[Obeisance]

So what do we do against gun heavy factions? Especially ones who can ignore/strip ARM/HTW?

[Kogan Style]

As Taelor would say "Welcome to Malifaux!"

Malifaux isn't about set lists, you have to play according to the scenario presented in front of you - from the strats 'n' schemes to your opponents faction. 

Against models that have a large proportion of  symbol attacks (note Ca actions can also be ) you will want a board with lots of cover to put the shooter on  to hit and with hard cover  to damage flip. We have options to throw up mobile cover as well:

Emissary can place Ht5 blocking, Impassible terrain 50mm markers to Block LoS. 

Crooligans have a(1) action to make the area within 4"  Ht3 Soft Cover

Sebastian's Under Cover action provides 8"  with  to  attacks.

Best thing though is to engage the models shooting you! You can't shoot while engaged, and Raspy can't use Ice Mirror if the 'Mirror' is engaged as well.

Ignoring Armour issue - Well we do the same to Arcanist, there is no real getting round the issue! Just don't take Izamu, without his Armour he crumbles very easily, and he suffers from the inability to relocate easily when the tide of battle moves away from him.

Ignoring HtW - I can only think of Joss as the anti-HtW in Arcanist. Perdita has to choose to ignore Armour or Cover, so if you use/create cover she will be forced to choose one or the other (most likely ignore cover as that puts her at negatives to start, whereas Armour only reduces the damage at the end) I just focus on Joss when he gets close and try to kill him before he reactivates

 

[Adran]

The important question to ask ypour self is if you played the game again, what would you have done differently? 

I'm NOT talking about adapting your crew to counter what they actually had. but things like seeing they had Rasputina with Ice pillars, and decide that you aren't goign to deploy somewhere you can get trapped, or seeing a decembers acolyte that can make his crew ignore your defences, and either kill it, or move it to a place where it can' effect his crew, or even just put it under enough pressure that he can't apare the AP to do that action.