Spirit Master - Molly or Kirai

[chris_havoc]

OK so the title of this topic may be slightly misleading but... I was making a crew today with Jaakuna Ubume as the linchpin and was wondering whether Molly or Kirai would be better for her. Having looked at them on paper they definitely offer different things to how Jaakuna would work so it got me thinking. If you want to use Spirits, when do you reach for Molly and when do you reach for Kirai?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I reach for spirit Molly pretty much 90% of the time because I think she is hands down more powerful than Horror Molly, that said... Kirai, at least in my opinion, is one of the strongest masters in the game and I personally think she needs a bit of toning down. They both have their advantages, but neither, at least in regards to spirits, is necessarily better with them than the other in my opinion. If you are looking for the most powerful master you can synergize with Jaakuna in the Ressers, it's probably Kirai, but Molly is no slouch. 

The choice is pretty much up to you really.

[MEGAHORSE]

I reach for spirit Molly pretty much 90% of the time because I think she is hands down more powerful than Horror Molly, that said... Kirai, at least in my opinion, is one of the strongest masters in the game and I personally think she needs a bit of toning down. They both have their advantages, but neither, at least in regards to spirits, is necessarily better with them than the other in my opinion. If you are looking for the most powerful master you can synergize with Jaakuna in the Ressers, it's probably Kirai, but Molly is no slouch. 

The choice is pretty much up to you really.

Why do you feel Kirai is so overpowered? I've read the opposite, that Seamus/Nico/McM are much more powerful in Mkii, and that with horror/spirit molly, spirit is better but not terribly that much better. You say otherwise, I'm just curious as I'm new to Molly and only have horrors atm. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think, personally, Kirai is over the line for exactly the same reasons that Levi is OP, but not to the same extent, in that she can do everything exceptionally well, and while both have weaknesses, they aren't always easy to exploit, and it can feel because of that, that there are no weaknesses to an opponent.

First Kirai is an excellent support master, with actions to heal (i believe, as I don't have my cards on me), and move her units around via swirl spirits. So slow moving spirits like Izamu and Jaakuna Ubume can be in your face with full AP turn 1 very effectively.

She's very mobile with her ability to go into the spirit world.

She's very survivable, although this is also her weakness, in that she is both Manipulative, which is a minor defense at best, though much better than Terror, and has an ability to redirect attacks at her to close-by spirits. This requires a mask, so any mask in hand can accomplish it, or a spent stone can do so as well. This weakness is because IF you can constantly attack her you can force her to burn her summoning stones/ potential high mask cards (if she doesn't have low ones) away so that reduces her ability to summon. But if she gets lucky you might not even see the effect this has on her, leading to the perception, even if you are hindering her a great deal, that it might look like there is no effect on her.

She can summon in a multitude of ways, AND in all ways they are extremely efficient. She summons by damaging her own models, so it isn't exactly a resource she lacks in to start, especially with both her, Datsue-ba, and perhaps another Spirit's ability to pop Seishin out like its going out of style, which also leads to activation control, which is another area of power for any master. So she doesn't have to work to get a resource like a Corpse or Scrap Marker, and there is no delay in her ability to start summoning. Collodi and Seamus might want to summon a marionette or Belle, respectively, 1st turn, but they need to get one of those resources 1st, so it tends to mitigate the ability, which isn't the case in Kirai's example. 

She also, has ways to summon a Gaki off another action, whereby she puts a condition on your model, and if she accomplishes the requirements while killing you she gets to put a Gaki on the table. That is extremely AP efficient because she didn't devote an entire AP to get the summon, as she does the condition, and damage I believe, then spends an AP to kill you, and gets a summon at the same time... very AP efficient.

Add to that she can just pop out one of the base best summons the Ressers have, the Hanged. I really do not like the Hanged as a hire as they are too fragile and too expensive for what they do, as it tends to be spending 9 stones to, on average eat 3 AP from the opponent, and reduce 1 enemy models wounds by half, and apply the no heal condition to that model, which I don't find is worth that cost. Summoning one however, especially with access to Accomplice, which she has via a limited upgrade, is huge because you get the only thing the Hanged is REALLY worth it for, for a single high card, and maybe a stone. 

She can summon very easily a massive beatstick at no range limitation when you damage a living or undead model, and many of the best spirits are also undead.

And to top it off her attack action is a Ca projectile that doesn't randomize into combat, has decent range, AND with an upgrade can do minimum damage 3. 

And that is all before we get into all the synergies with the Adversary condition.

To me, just like Leveticus, there isn't any one thing that that takes her over the edge, its that she is good at everything, with only minor weaknesses. She is exceptionally deadly in her own right with the Unforgiven upgrade and her ranged attack. She is very survivable with her ability to clog charge lanes with Seishin and garbage spirits, as well as a trigger to redirect attacks to those same spirits, and Manipulative. She is exceptionally mobile, via Into the Spirit World. She is exceptionally good at supporting her crew with Heals and Placement effects. And she has a mixture of very efficient summoning, with access to the best model to summon in the lesser line.

I'm not crying broken, but if she were to be cuddled I remove the extra dmg from the unforgiven upgrade and change it to something else, and I'd remove the ability of her raged attack to not randomize into combat. Or it would need to be changed to be more like Molly's attack which can't do a lot of dmg, and is shorter range, but has some interesting Debuffs and triggers on it. I'm not sure that is enough, but its definitely one of the things I don't like in that she can be deadly in her own right, with all the other things she can do at the same time.

 

As for Spirit Molly, it's partly because the spirits she can summon give her much better options than the Horrors do. Horror Molly isn't bad, and I do play both, and thematically I'm more of a fan of Horror Molly any day of the week, but the ability to summon Punk zombies as the best thing she can summon is very much overrated when compared to being able to pop a Hanged out on command, and then accomplice it immediately, with possibly giving it another AP via her limited upgrade, and having the ability to summon Shikome, which are very comparable to the Punk Zomibe at the same time. And the Other common Summon, the Drowned, is both a Spirit and a Horror. And she has a wider range of models to summon because of the ability to summon Night Terrors, for when numbers are all you care about on the board.

Add to this the fact that Horrors don't tend to synergize well with each other, whereas spirits do because of the frequency of how often they give each other the benefits of the adversary condition. 

Finally it is easier to flood the board with Spirits than it is to do the same with Horrors, which gives more opportunity to utilize Molly's ability to give out black blood. 

 

These are my opinions anyway.

[MEGAHORSE]

I think, personally, Kirai is over the line for exactly the same reasons that Levi is OP, but not to the same extent, in that she can do everything exceptionally well, and while both have weaknesses, they aren't always easy to exploit, and it can feel because of that, that there are no weaknesses to an opponent.

First Kirai is an excellent support master, with actions to heal (i believe, as I don't have my cards on me), and move her units around via swirl spirits. So slow moving spirits like Izamu and Jaakuna Ubume can be in your face with full AP turn 1 very effectively.

She's very mobile with her ability to go into the spirit world.

She's very survivable, although this is also her weakness, in that she is both Manipulative, which is a minor defense at best, though much better than Terror, and has an ability to redirect attacks at her to close-by spirits. This requires a mask, so any mask in hand can accomplish it, or a spent stone can do so as well. This weakness is because IF you can constantly attack her you can force her to burn her summoning stones/ potential high mask cards (if she doesn't have low ones) away so that reduces her ability to summon. But if she gets lucky you might not even see the effect this has on her, leading to the perception, even if you are hindering her a great deal, that it might look like there is no effect on her.

She can summon in a multitude of ways, AND in all ways they are extremely efficient. She summons by damaging her own models, so it isn't exactly a resource she lacks in to start, especially with both her, Datsue-ba, and perhaps another Spirit's ability to pop Seishin out like its going out of style, which also leads to activation control, which is another area of power for any master. So she doesn't have to work to get a resource like a Corpse or Scrap Marker, and there is no delay in her ability to start summoning. Collodi and Seamus might want to summon a marionette or Belle, respectively, 1st turn, but they need to get one of those resources 1st, so it tends to mitigate the ability, which isn't the case in Kirai's example. 

She also, has ways to summon a Gaki off another action, whereby she puts a condition on your model, and if she accomplishes the requirements while killing you she gets to put a Gaki on the table. That is extremely AP efficient because she didn't devote an entire AP to get the summon, as she does the condition, and damage I believe, then spends an AP to kill you, and gets a summon at the same time... very AP efficient.

Add to that she can just pop out one of the base best summons the Ressers have, the Hanged. I really do not like the Hanged as a hire as they are too fragile and too expensive for what they do, as it tends to be spending 9 stones to, on average eat 3 AP from the opponent, and reduce 1 enemy models wounds by half, and apply the no heal condition to that model, which I don't find is worth that cost. Summoning one however, especially with access to Accomplice, which she has via a limited upgrade, is huge because you get the only thing the Hanged is REALLY worth it for, for a single high card, and maybe a stone. 

She can summon very easily a massive beatstick at no range limitation when you damage a living or undead model, and many of the best spirits are also undead.

And to top it off her attack action is a Ca projectile that doesn't randomize into combat, has decent range, AND with an upgrade can do minimum damage 3. 

And that is all before we get into all the synergies with the Adversary condition.

To me, just like Leveticus, there isn't any one thing that that takes her over the edge, its that she is good at everything, with only minor weaknesses. She is exceptionally deadly in her own right with the Unforgiven upgrade and her ranged attack. She is very survivable with her ability to clog charge lanes with Seishin and garbage spirits, as well as a trigger to redirect attacks to those same spirits, and Manipulative. She is exceptionally mobile, via Into the Spirit World. She is exceptionally good at supporting her crew with Heals and Placement effects. And she has a mixture of very efficient summoning, with access to the best model to summon in the lesser line.

I'm not crying broken, but if she were to be cuddled I remove the extra dmg from the unforgiven upgrade and change it to something else, and I'd remove the ability of her raged attack to not randomize into combat. Or it would need to be changed to be more like Molly's attack which can't do a lot of dmg, and is shorter range, but has some interesting Debuffs and triggers on it. I'm not sure that is enough, but its definitely one of the things I don't like in that she can be deadly in her own right, with all the other things she can do at the same time.

 

As for Spirit Molly, it's partly because the spirits she can summon give her much better options than the Horrors do. Horror Molly isn't bad, and I do play both, and thematically I'm more of a fan of Horror Molly any day of the week, but the ability to summon Punk zombies as the best thing she can summon is very much overrated when compared to being able to pop a Hanged out on command, and then accomplice it immediately, with possibly giving it another AP via her limited upgrade, and having the ability to summon Shikome, which are very comparable to the Punk Zomibe at the same time. And the Other common Summon, the Drowned, is both a Spirit and a Horror. And she has a wider range of models to summon because of the ability to summon Night Terrors, for when numbers are all you care about on the board.

Add to this the fact that Horrors don't tend to synergize well with each other, whereas spirits do because of the frequency of how often they give each other the benefits of the adversary condition. 

Finally it is easier to flood the board with Spirits than it is to do the same with Horrors, which gives more opportunity to utilize Molly's ability to give out black blood. 

 

These are my opinions anyway.

Fantastic write up. Thank you so much! I really want to invest in Kirai's box and Spirit Molly, but have been holding off due to the lack of Plastic spirit models. I'd end up spending 30$ in proxies, then painting them, then end up buying the plastics come December/Jan. I might as well, you make Kirai sound downright amazing to play. I remember reading she was broken good in 1e, not sure what they changed to cuddle her down (in some people's eyes). Do you find summoning off Gaki more efficient? Or hiring a Flesh Construct to be a better use of AP and soulstones? In addition, like Nicodem she can heal. Do you summon like once per turn, then heal things up, and nuke opponents? I guess my question is... how often do you summon and how often do you heal?

Edited October 19, 2015 by gromgrom

[chris_havoc]

I agree but she has to choose between options of or pay for that flexibility whereas Levi doesn't for the most part. If she wants to use the great (0) movement, she can't Summon a Seishin. If she uses her Masks/Stones to defend, she has worse odds of getting that movement trick off. The Gaki Summon is VERY AP efficient and her Summons are pretty efficient but can get rid of that numerical advantage you're talking about and also leave your Summons vulnerable to retaliation if you don't take Bloody Shears but no denying the ability to Summon off your own models' wounds is GREAT. She relies on models (likely hers for Spirits) dying for that upgrade of hers to get more Seishin, She also has to choose between high damage and Accomplice which I don't think was really mentioned, both would definitely be broken. The heals she has are also expensive to discard a card or sac a Seishin so they are resource intensive. I would say she is certainly powerful but broken is a push I think. I'm not disagreeing with you on any point that she is versatile and competent in multiple arenas though it's just that all the things you mention have a cost that mitigate that versatility. I feel similarly about Molly though she has one or two hard counters in the game.

Back to the topic at hand, when I was looking at Spirit Molly vs. Kirai I had trouble deciding which would be better. To my mind they offer different styles of play to Spirits in general.

Molly offers a lot of passive support with Black Blood and to move key models around with her (0). Reactivate on Hanged is nothing to frown at either. Her synergy with Belles also means that you have more reason to go for the great mobility they offer. What I like about Spirit Molly is to Summon an Onryo all up in your opponent's business for the Pulse damage and an extra model (obviously) but because the model comes in engaged, the opponent has very little choice but to go for the Onryo and thus splash out Adversary to several models at once.

Kirai, on the other hand, has a more active role in assisting Spirits. She can heal them, actively dish out Adversary, switch out Spirits around the board. With Ikiryo busting out of Kirai and/or her friends also adds more aggressive support. So she can dish out Adversary and throw a heavy hitter forward to take advantage of it.

[chris_havoc]

I tried Molly out on Wednesday with a focus on Jaakuna Ubume. I gotta say I can't see Kirai being so obviously better that she is the go-to choice. I have only really run Molly as a Horror master but damn she is potent with Spirits. Datsue Ba suits Molly's play style really well. Extra movement for Spirits and Seishin Summon for heals and blast protection. The Belles/Doxies complement the Jaakuna tar pit really well. The Drowned are just awesome coupled with Datsue Ba using Spirit Whispers. All of a sudden killing my model is almost beneficial because I drop two Scheme Markers but the thing that is great with Molly is she can Summon and kill a Drowned off the bat and place two Scheme Markers for 1 AP. Made Spring the Trap REALLY easy.

I still definitely want to try out the Kirai/Jaakuna list because I see it playing very differently. She can Summon Drowned in game and out of engagement so doesn't have to hire them which leaves points open for Izamu as a beat stick. She has no Black Blood for protection but heals and Ikiryo definitely make up for it. Using Swirling Spirits on Jaakun with Unnerving Aura also sounds really great.

[Da Git]

I've never tried Jaakuma, but I love Kirai, she's my first & favourite master and what got me into the game. 

I have to agree with Fetid in that she's super powerful and does everything really easily.  I wouldn't mind a cuddle on something really just to make her not so easy.  Nothing major, just a few tweaks here and there.

[daniello_s]

Fetid nailed it indeed. Kirai is ultimately difficult as an opponent and to be honest she is the only master I don't really enjoy playing against.