Help against the Rail Golem (and Arcanist in general)

[HegemonyKrcket]

So I'm having some serious issues with the Rail Golem (and Arcanists in general).  I've played against it five times and all five times it's completely destroyed my crew no matter what I've tried to do.  With a little bit of coxing from another model (Normally 1 AP) it's able to move across the board, smash anything (Including Masters) and then move on to another target.

I've tried burning it down with armor ignoring models.  I've tried slowing, rooting, and debuffing it.  I've tried out statting it.  And nothing seems to work.  One bad flip and it's off to the races.  I'm starting to feel like it's horribly underpriced/overpowered.  Between it's damage output, AP generation (3-5 consistently in my experience), survivability, and obvious master synergies it just seems flat out better than any other 11+ SS model, especially Neverborn.  Teddy is almost as cool but the Rail Golems (almost) guaranteed 5/6/8 is freaking ridiculous (that's better than Nekima for the love of Pete).

I've also been having a lot of trouble with Ramos who just generates AP exponentially and Ironsides who is both unkillable and incredibly destructive.  Every fight is a massive uphill battle and it's getting to the point to where I just don't want to play against Arcanists... ever.  

So I'm not sure if I'm just missing something or what.  So please, help me out with any suggestions you might have on how to deal with the Rail Golem (or others if you've got em).

[Adran]

Speaking as a player that enjoys using the rail golem, it is a bit of a hit and miss model. Its power relies on you getting tomes in your hand to get that locomotion trigger.  Without it, its quite poor for an 11 stone model. I normally find it is only worth its points in about half the games I use it in. But when it works, it does work really well. 

You can't strip tomes from their hand strictly, but you can presurise their hand. Make them take lots of duels, they'll start using cards to pass them. I'm thinking forcing them to take terrifying tests, or manipulative tests will make them lose cards. This won't help if they flip the locomotive trigger, but should reduce the overall AP. (can't think of neverborn specific card discarding tricks off the top of my head outside of Sttiched together

It hits hard under locomotion, but it is still only Ml 5, so you can use high cards to make it miss and cost it burning. 

Its also pretty slow naturally. It can walk 8 and then make locomotive actions. If you are more than 10" away then it is having to spend its actions on walking (which it really doesn't want to). And whilst I will normally say that Burning is not the limiting factor to its actions, it is something that they need to consider. Johan shouting at a rail golem to remove its built up burning will slow it down.

[Ludvig]

What masters and models have you tried? How does it avoid the rooting? Both the Golem and Langston are absolutely disgusting to face but unless we know how they unroot it's hard to help.

Out activating to keep him too far away from hurting anything and using a Teddy/Nephilim with retribution's eye seems like something I would try. Zoraida springs to mind since she can give extra AP to position your hitter from a safe place to within charge range (after the golem has activated). If playing against Ramos it can be hard to out-activate, at least after early turns but you should be able to deal with the Golem t1. The voodoo doll along with a couple of nurses are usually quite successful in shutting stuff down.

The Widow Weaver should counter the Golem somewhat by being hard to hit and smacking it back forcefully, especially if Mr Loco gives her + to dmg (Zoraida again).

There are some mercs with relic hammers I believe.

If you can't out-range it altogether (let's face it, Imbued energies makes that impossible) you need to feed it something that forces it to get stuck within range of your counter. 

You know that with brilliance on the golem a 7ss Illuminated hits almost as hard? Collodi can also do all sorts of fun stuff with his attacks and can easily force the golem to have to hit chaff with hard to kill, now that dmg isn't so scary anymore.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Ludvig

[Eclipse]

Also less effective from tactical standpoint, but quite amusing to think about: Obey the Rail Golem to interact and put out it's burning. Laugh out loud at your devilish shenanigans. What's more: Call Johan, and the Ban Hammer of Anti-Arcanist Justice!

[SurreyLee]

From memory, Mr Tannen can reduce all tomes within a bubble by -2 which will have some obvious benefit here and in general against Arcanists whilst improving your mask flips by +2 at the same time.

[vonevilstein]

I would have thought that Pandora with a couple of Sorrows would make pretty short work of him - or something similar. They'll do everything you need - play with it's activation order to limit the build up of Burning via other models, put pressure on it's controllers hand (constant wp tests), and circumvent it's armour (multiple 1 damage sources). You could possibly mix in an armoured, SS capable model (for damage prevention flips) like Barbaros to hold it's attention long enough to set up Pandora and Sorrows up for the kill.

Pandora also gives you options against out-activation since you can dictate the order of activation. Lastly, if you find the archanids bunching up, send in an Insidious madness to throw down some paralysis.

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2015 by vonevilstein

[Patzer]

Eye of Retribution will take care of the Rail Golem's only defense. It is a really good investment against Arcanists in general due to their reliance on Armor. Kade, Hooded Rider, Johan, and Teddy are pretty good targets for it. Lilith can vicked vine it to stop its movement. Pandora can Paralyse it every turn, making it pretty useless. 

[Jafar]

I only played once agains Rail Golem, It was with Pandora, I had luck and paralyzed him for 3 times. So maybe you can try this?

[bertmac]

Pandora doesnt do tons of damage to it generally as 3/4/6 dmg vs armour 2 isnt great even with extra for misery. Lilith dragging it in and keeping a high card for when it attacks her to give it -2 ml will neuter it. Teddy with retributions eye will kill it quickly.

[vonevilstein]

Pandora doesnt do tons of damage to it generally as 3/4/6 dmg vs armour 2 isnt great even with extra for misery. Lilith dragging it in and keeping a high card for when it attacks her to give it -2 ml will neuter it. Teddy with retributions eye will kill it quickly.

Pandora with just one Sorrow will probably be enough. Misery (1x2)x3 + (3x1) =  9 dmg minimum. At Ca7 vs Df4 a moderate dmg result should be possible in 3 attempts which will give the extra wound needed to take it down (even against a Defensive stance). Take 2 sorrows to be absolutely sure though....;-P

Edit: Sorry to be clear, that's a minimum 9 dmg in total from 3ap which is not reduced by armour. In addition if that Sorrow is sitting next to the Golem, the next time it activates it loses that last wound, so you may not even a moderate dmg result 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2015 by vonevilstein

[D_acolyte]

If you have issues with armor take a mature with retribution's eye, min 4 damage ignoring armor will make a Rail Golem cry. I also like it on the Scion of Black Blood or Graves for economic choices. If you run the Dreamer it on a teddy is wicked, killed a Rail Golem and Howard in one turn with it.

Lilith and waldgeist  can root models making it so they can not move. Sarrows can paralyze it. You can also use lure to pull him out and then have everyone jump him for a death of a thousand needles.

[anumberone]

 I recommend Pandora too and a Doppelganger either with Retribution's eye or borrow Joss's attack with the Doppelganger if he's around. All the built in good stuff (ignore armor, etc).  Hooded Rider is good as well. Changelings can copy that insane damage output and manipulative can help protect them from retaliation. 

[Ludvig]

 I recommend Pandora too and a Doppelganger either with Retribution's eye or borrow Joss's attack with the Doppelganger if he's around. All the built in good stuff (ignore armor, etc).  Hooded Rider is good as well. Changelings can copy that insane damage output and manipulative can help protect them from retaliation. 

The changelings don't borrow the insanity of the rail golem since the min 5 is only when locomoting. They don't get any suits either so the rider's attack is min 2 for them. They will do 2 or 3 dmg reduced to 1 from the Golems armour. I guess Langston and Joss have "ok" attacks too if that's what you meant   

I'll have to proxy a list with 5 changelings, Lucius and the Emmissary against arcanists sometime.

[HegemonyKrcket]

So I've been pouring over books and Conditions seems to be the best bet in faction, while there are some other options with Mercenaries.  I already came up with a lot of the Zoraida tactics you guys mentioned (as she's one of my favorites even though I don't play her much).  With RG's low Df and Wp I realized that lateral attacks where probably more effective.  Additionally, keeping him alive might be interesting due to Bewitched... if I can keep my crew moving away from him (which Mama Z doesn't seem to have a problem with).

I seem to draw killy Strats/Schemes a lot so I get distracted and play Lilith and Pandora a lot.  

I've had a tough time fighting it with Lilith because of the activation order.  I don't want to Tangle him until he's activated, but he can wait me out so if I don't kill him in two hit he gets to respond in a pretty nasty way.  And with low Wd Nephilim I've found he can pretty easily tear through my crew in one activation due to his +flip and 3(5) minimum damage.  I take Iggy whenever I can due to Mood Swings, but sometimes it's hard to find the points for him with Lilith.

I almost always take Retributions Eye and/or Hans when I'm going up against Arcanists because of the Armor, but it never seems to actually translate to killing brutes.  I've never thought about it on Kade, but that does sound sexy.

With Pandora, I've not had a lot of luck against Arcs because of their high Wp and general other Wp tricks.  Also their wide variety of Ca and ship damage makes my Sorrows and Madnesses die pretty damn fast.  I also tend to play Box Opens because I like the feel of it, but I'm starting to try Paralyzing things more... so we'll see.

I also have Lynch and Dreamer but I haven't played them much so I'm still getting a handle on them on the table.  I playtested Dreamer a lot back in Beta but haven't played him since.

To answer some of the questions you guys brought up though:

"How does it get out of rooted?"

The Captain or any of the other numerous Arcanist models that give out free pushes and moves.  Yes he takes 1 damage (3 - 2 Armor), but who cares he's got 10 Wd. This also gives him free Burning.

"How does he get burning?'

Miners, Captain, or any other numerous Arcanist models that give out burning.

"How does he get Tombs?"

Arcane Reserves, spending SS, and then Recharge Soulstone.  One particular player likes to do this with Kaeris because a lot of her crew doesn't need to do damage flips to get their damage up due to stacking burning.  Which... as a side note, the Arcanist seem to be able to lay down WAY more consistently high amount of damage than most other factions for very little cost (cards, Wds, etc).  I'm starting to see why the Newsletter pointed them out as one of the most competitive factions (read more powerful).

Edited October 14, 2015 by HegemonyKrcket

[Ludvig]

Enforcers cannot spend soulstones so your opponent is cheating if the golem is stoning.

Can you invest in cheaper models to out-activate? After he has gone you tangle him close to whatever has retribution's eye. 

Edited October 14, 2015 by Ludvig

[eldritch]

Don't use Sorrows or Madness against Arcanists. In fact, Pandora can be run as or more effectively without the crap that comes in her box. Hans and a Doppleganger with Retribution's Eye will handle armor, and Voices Pandora will end the RG - well, paralyze it at your leisure anyway.

[Eclipse]

Don't use Sorrows or Madness against Arcanists. In fact, Pandora can be run as or more effectively without the crap that comes in her box. Hans and a Doppleganger with Retribution's Eye will handle armor, and Voices Pandora will end the RG - well, paralyze it at your leisure anyway.

I don't like the Poltergeist, Baby Cade and even Candy, sure. But the Sorrows I have had great fun with and with careful placement and crew selection they can be great. Don't underestimate them, even against Arcanists.

[vonevilstein]

Don't use Sorrows or Madness against Arcanists. In fact, Pandora can be run as or more effectively without the crap that comes in her box. Hans and a Doppleganger with Retribution's Eye will handle armor, and Voices Pandora will end the RG - well, paralyze it at your leisure anyway.

I don't like the Poltergeist, Baby Cade and even Candy, sure. But the Sorrows I have had great fun with and with careful placement and crew selection they can be great. Don't underestimate them, even against Arcanists.

Yup Barboros's taunt + IM will sort all that out. Ca is not something to worry about for Incorporeal if it can't hit.

[eldritch]

The problem isn't that they can't fight. The problem is that they're basically worthless on their own. Pandora already has an issue with the enemy not clumping up, and sure, Sorrows can work well when they're nicely positioned to support her, and that's the problem. You need stuff that can work elsewhere, independently and more flexibly - not things that aggravate her weakness. Putting Barbaros in the mix compounds the problem further.

[Kadeton]

I'm starting to see why the Newsletter pointed them out as one of the most competitive factions (read more powerful).

Arcanists are definitely one of the seven most competitive Factions in the game.

I haven't had a great deal of luck with the Rail Golem myself, and I've pretty easily destroyed them when they've locomoted across my path - in general, when your opponent declares Arcanists, it's a good plan to load up on as many things as you can that ignore or get around Armor.

I can say from experience that a Teddy with Retribution's Eye can easily turn a Rail Golem into scrap metal.

[4554551//]

If you're playing vs arcanists invest in johan(a), a retributions eye for it or another hitter, and if schemes permit it, tannen for the -2 to tombs.

I'm unsure why you're struggling so much, it's a powerhouse of a model, sure, but so are a lot of things.

Consider going back to baisics and look at tarpitting, out activating and good positioning.

[vonevilstein]

The problem isn't that they can't fight. The problem is that they're basically worthless on their own. Pandora already has an issue with the enemy not clumping up, and sure, Sorrows can work well when they're nicely positioned to support her, and that's the problem. You need stuff that can work elsewhere, independently and more flexibly - not things that aggravate her weakness. Putting Barbaros in the mix compounds the problem further.

They aren't there for fighting though. They can be used for a number of purposes - chief amongst those is messing with an opponents activation order using Life Leech, Doldrums or Melancholy (if you take Depression). I often break Pandora's crew up into small fire-teams - depending on the strat/schemes/opponents this is usually 3 teams, which I find never hampers me for board coverage (even when I use 2 teams) - and there is usually a sorrow in each of those teams. Admittedly against certain Arcanists I'd probably would only use them in Barbaros's team, since without his taunt they would certainly be easy prey.

To be fair though, I guess this comes down to play-style/preference as much as anything else.