M2E Ironsides

[Bengt]

3 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Willie (Miss Fire) and Oxfordian Mages: Willie walks, drops blast marker on unactivated Mages. The damage is reduced to 1 due to Arcane Shielding. This requires no card flipping.

There is a Df 12 duel to take damage from the blast you get when Willie walks, so a Df 5 model only has 46% chance to take damage before cheating, and while it's a low card if you have to cheat, it's still a card from your hand. So you are either paying AP or cards to get the damage.

That said it is a decent way to do that 1 damage on all the M&SU guys with armour as well since it's only his Demo Charge attack that ignores armour, the walk blast is normal damage.

[spooky_squirrel]

19 minutes ago, Bengt said:

There is a Df 12 duel to take damage from the blast you get when Willie walks, so a Df 5 model only has 46% chance to take damage before cheating, and while it's a low card if you have to cheat, it's still a card from your hand. So you are either paying AP or cards to get the damage.

That said it is a decent way to do that 1 damage on all the M&SU guys with armour as well since it's only his Demo Charge attack that ignores armour, the walk blast is normal damage.

Heh, simple duel.. cannot relent. I'll fix my remark

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

7 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

7 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

Ok thank you very much Guys...

Next step is purchase Willie,and like MsU beater I've Miss Step that can I use.

I need to train me to use the mages...at the end I use ever they as scheme runner or take the stash ecc...

I don't like very much Hank with her.. well I think he's quite indipendent and strong on his own. A little too fast to stay in her bubble. He's decent, thought.

HPM isn't really super effective on a Ml7 4/5/6 dmg.

On the other hand Joss is amazing with her: 4 damages ignoring all common defenses is bonkers and the ward bonuses on him.. god, soooo sweet. And he's sooo tanky.. just love him.

Until now the Rail Golem didnt seem to me the best beater cause its tome hungriness was in conflict with Toni's.. but now, with the errata, he's starting to shine in my mind.

Speaking of medium class beaters i like gunsmiths, johan and mages a lot. All of them can beat something 3 times, and with HPM they hitting power reaches scary levels. It's card hungry of course, but with all those positives you'll usually need to cheat less than normal crews (and you'll have a use for every card in hand).

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

.. double..

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

7 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

 

[SevenThirtySeven]

What do you guys think of The Captain? I know general consensus is that he's way over costed.  Does he have to have his upgrade if you take him? He hits like a truck, and seems pretty survivable. Anyone get utility out of spamming Airburst or Wind Walls? 

Thanks 

[spooky_squirrel]

6 hours ago, SevenThirtySeven said:

What do you guys think of The Captain? I know general consensus is that he's way over costed.  Does he have to have his upgrade if you take him? He hits like a truck, and seems pretty survivable. Anyone get utility out of spamming Airburst or Wind Walls? 

Thanks 

I wouldn't say he's way over-costed, he's just running into the problem of not being as useful as other options that are the same cost (including splitting his cost+upgrades between Angelica and Johan) in as many situations. Full package on The Captain in Ironsides' crew with Oxfordian Trio comes in at 13 stones (Warding Runes and Patron's Blessing), where Vanilla Johan and Angelica combined come in. So if you're needing a source of friendly support pushes for the crew at the same time you want a relic hammer in counter-charge reach of the battle lines, he's not the best answer. He does either/or, not both at the same time.

His Airburst is great for maneuvering other pieces around, including opposing pieces and masters. This is great for control in strat/scheme pools that you're attempting to complete via controlling where things end up. If you only ever use it to push around things like the Oxfordian Mages, Angelica is a more cost-effective source of pushing. For an additional stone, you bring in Practiced Production and use Raptors to put scheme markers in parts of the board you normally would never reach with an Ironsides crew.

He brings a Relic Hammer, but if you're using a predominantly M&SU crew and find yourself wanting a Relic Hammer just in case attached to a model with some utility outside of combat, Johan's Open Revolt ability is incredibly tempting and he brings condition removal that can also target opposing models. He can flurry with his hammer and gets benefits for being around other M&SU models. If you're already leaning towards Angelica for the pushes because of who you normally use the pushes on (friendly non-masters), then Johan's Hammer and secondary utilities are more likely to find a home. To make up for his slowness, you might give him Imbued Energies for a turn of fast, or Well Rehearsed for some out-of-activation pushes as well as a variant on Hard to Kill that isn't bypassed by people like Joss. You also might just run him as-is, because you know he's a priority target when he's in the middle of an M&SU mob.

Strategy and schemes that profit off of Henchmen (Collect the Bounty, FFM, Tail 'Em) make taking enforcers that can do Henchmen's work a better option, as you're less likely to give the critical points needed to score. Similarly, Strat/Schemes that call for more activations/higher models counts will benefit more from splitting up the labor.

That's the case against The Captain.

He's an Agile beater, so he can always try to move out of engagement to do things. His defensive trigger lets him move after taking damage. He's quicker on his feet than Johan (11 inch threat versus 9, without using any other shenanigans), and can change roles in the middle of the battle, so he's never "useless" (Angelica's Practiced Production loses a lot of utility if you kill the node models, she can only push friendly non-masters, and she herself doesn't benefit from Ironsides' bubbles). He doesn't have synergies that benefit him on his own card, but he can be a morale booster for Oxfordian Mages (Student Loans) and anything that's hanging out near him (Bulletproof +1 for other models nearby).

If you want control and want to make your opponent have to work harder to influence the board, he can push opposing models, potentially setting them on fire. This isn't something that's even remotely an option for Angelica, and he only has to tie to make it happen with a Df-resisted Ca 6 and the potential of being on positives because you're running Ironsides and he's probably taken 2 wounds from being pushed 6-8" up the table by an Oxfordian Mage (regenerating 1 at start of his activation). If you're playing into something like Interference, Extraction, or Guard the Stash, he can completely ruin your opponent's day. He's a Henchman that can support or deny on the Strategy, and every turn scoring of the Strategy counts. If you only make it to turn 5 within the time limit (or flip ending game), you can only ever get full credit for the Strategy if you score it every turn.

Does he absolutely need his personal upgrades? Not really. Two stones gets you an additional AP that can only be used on Ca actions, which has been game-changing by itself (which makes it a worthwhile expenditure when it happens). A third gives him regen/pluses against opposing leaders/immunity to conditions (conditionally) and Counterspell (unconditionally). If you want to sink your stones in other directions, you can, but I've found that if I'm reaching for The Captain with upgrades, these are the upgrades I'm reaching for and the stones I'm trying to justify. He is a Henchman, Arcanists have some solid upgrade choices to fill his two slots with, and you might find that Recharge Soulstone and Warding Runes get you more value for your hire. Especially if you're using him to kill things and run the front line.

So at the end of the day, it depends on what you're planning on doing with those stones. You've got 14-15 stones you'd be spending on Johan and Angelica with upgrades to get the most work out of them or 12-13 stones to get the most work out of The Captain along the lines of what I've mentioned here (and because it's Toni, may end up with Johan anyway). If your plan for the strat/scheme/opposing faction calls for one over the other, go with it and work your plan.
 

[SevenThirtySeven]

Great summary, thanks!!!

Btw, can you cast multiple Wind Walls per turn with him?

[spooky_squirrel]

16 hours ago, SevenThirtySeven said:

Great summary, thanks!!!

Btw, can you cast multiple Wind Walls per turn with him?

Yes, the only limit on how many Wind Walls are in play is the number of AP you spend on casting it before his next activation.

[dannydb]

Has anyone tried running ironsides as  kaeris 2.0? Message from the union, lots of gunsmiths and the like? is it just worse than running Kaeris and or ironsides in  brawler/buffer buffer mode

[Jordon]

I do feel like message from the union is a highly underrated upgrade for Ironsides. I think it's mainly due to the fact that she has too many good options that this one often gets left behind unfortunately. 

In terms of Ironsides vs Kaeris for burning synergy. Well I think Kaeris is still the better option mainly because she can use it while engaged and Ironsides cannot. Kaeris also has the better stat (Ca7 vs Sh6) and it plays into virtually everything else she does. Ironsides sort of wants to be in combat, especially since her update and so focusing on bottles too much is kind of a waste of her talents IMO.

It's still a great option and is one of the best answers for amour (a real bane for Ironsides) since stacking burning will melt armour versus chipping away at it via punches. For example three bottles on an armour +2 target will do 7 damage whereas three punches will only do 3-4 damage on average. 

[spooky_squirrel]

For kicks and giggles I've used Message from the Union in a crew that included Gunsmiths. Between that and Hand Picked Men it made things interesting. Switching Chambers with a Tome gets you around the whole armor business, but The Hard Way on a slightly scratched Gunsmith against a burning target is just bonkers. You will find all of your jokers. You might even get your choice of triggers too.

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

I give Message from the Union to Toni all the times i'm not listing the mages trio, and there is always at least a Gunsmith in my Toni's crews.

I do enjoy using fire sinergies, but not make them a priority. The most "burny" crew i've used was something like Toni with MFTU, ox trio, firestarter, two gunsmiths and johan.

I find Message from the union very useful when FFM is around.

Cannot say about toni's kaerisness because I don't own the winged girl, but i'd say their role are quite different (think jordon made a good point).

My 2 cents, bye

 

[Sybarite]

Kaeris has a scheme marker support or heals people, as part of her strong suit. Not just the burning. so I dont think Kaeris 2.0 is a fitting term.

[dannydb]

I know its not technically ironsides related but had a couple game with the oxford mages this weekend (both with ironsides and karis) and struggled to keep them out of combat, with their "short" range they tended to form a 2nd line just behind my brawlers but in both the games I played they ended up in combat so unable to help much (other than the blood ward one)

 

how do you keep do people keep their mages safe, I guess i didn't have enough models in the front line both games so that might need to be reminded but with the modes i had I wanted to keep them safe from teddies grasp!

[retnab]

Pushes, mostly.  Use Angelica and The Captain to keep them within threat range to the enemy but outside the enemy's threat range, if you can.  Also if they're doing Furious Casting into an enemy, you can use the push trigger on their last attack to shove them out of their threat range if it's equal to or higher than yours.

Remember that the one carrying the Blood Ward doesn't mind being in combat, so I usually have that one further forward than the others.

[spooky_squirrel]

21 hours ago, dannydb said:

I know its not technically ironsides related but had a couple game with the oxford mages this weekend (both with ironsides and karis) and struggled to keep them out of combat, with their "short" range they tended to form a 2nd line just behind my brawlers but in both the games I played they ended up in combat so unable to help much (other than the blood ward one)

 

how do you keep do people keep their mages safe, I guess i didn't have enough models in the front line both games so that might need to be reminded but with the modes i had I wanted to keep them safe from teddies grasp!

If you're running Ironsides, she could pull them out herself. Outside of Ironsides, what @retnab mentioned is what you'll end up needing to do. The temptation to put more bodies on the front line is there, but the thing to bear in mind is that every faction has ways to bypass the front line and get something in the faces of the Oxfordian Magi. Experienced opponents are very likely to do so, because 2/3 members of a Trio Gunline are essentially neutralized just by being engaged.

This is what inevitably leads to the question of "what were these guys hired to do, how will they go about doing it, and is it worth saving their hides", because you're going to have to put some AP and/or cards into getting them out of engagement if they need to be casting on things. If it's something like Teddy getting into them and they're not the main effort, at least he's there with them instead of gobbling up your scheme runners.

[Fazza92]

After reading you're messages I tried Toni with MFTU,but it hasn't convinced me...

At the end with FFM I prefer Kaeris (against big model with low Df is amazing,you can put a Burning +4 with only an attack and a stone),supported by Firestarter.

And Toni for survive need to have a lot of adrenaline,and the better source of it are stay into enemy heart...

I see that a charge (10") is more resolutive than throw 3 molotov.

Mi7 2/3/4 against Sh6TN12 B+3.

In melee I can found adrenaline hitting with ,and next turn when She active.

Starting by 7 I have more chance to do damage and there is noTN...

 

[retnab]

I'm not a big fan of Message in general, but it does give Gunsmiths  against the target which is kind of awesome (and hilarious).

Typically I'll bring Challenge the Crowd and Seize the Day (I play her aggressive, so being able to activate her first and get lots of Adrenaline is nice), with my 3rd slot being between Warding Runes (if I'm bringing Oxfordians or playing vs Ressurectionists), Iron Determination (if I don't have much heal support in the rest of the crew), or Recharge Soulstone (things should absolutely be dying near her, and she is greedy for her stone use to not die).

[Mxbedlam]

The dominant Toni crew in my local meta is: 

Ironsides (Frontline Leadership, Sieze the Day, Warding Runes)

Amina (warding runes)

3 mages (Shield, Wards)

2 Vistra Guards (one with Well Rehearsed)

Electric Creation. 

 

[Lizard_Wizard]

I'm curious, why the Electric Creation with Toni?

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Lizard_Wizard said:

I'm curious, why the Electric Creation with Toni?

I'm guessing its a safe way to do one damage to your models that you want Hand picked men working on. 

[Lizard_Wizard]

Just now, Adran said:

I'm guessing its a safe way to do one damage to your models that you want Hand picked men working on. 

Ahh, of course!

Thank you

[Mxbedlam]

Indeed and combined with Amina, it can shut down their big beaters from targeting your key pieces as well.