M2E Ironsides

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

Yeah, that was.. implicit. Joss is known for durability.

That said,I tend to play Toni more as a buffer and less as a tarpit, and she usually survives the games with a lot of wounds remaining.

Maybe is dicted by my meta, where usually people tends not to play iper aggressive. But we are a real young malifaux gruop, time will tell.

Anyway, what you Ironsides-lovers brothers think about our master in the new GG?

I had just read the new scheme a little but the impression is to shift my playstile to a less killy one.

I'm now super excited to try Union Miners. With their new shiny card they seem the perfect tool for a lot of marker schemes, starting from the Claim Jump. It seems to me that this scheme is like built around their ability. On the paper one Uniom Miner can just do Claim Jump every turn with a 1 AP, and that's seems to me the most AP-efficent and reliable way to do it.

I'm sorry for the probable errors, but english is not my languague

Good day and happy new year!  

[Nikodemus]

I don't think Union Miners work for that. False Claim removes one scheme marker during the Upkeep Step. Upkeep Step happens before VP step.

[admiralvorkraft]

But one Union Miner can theoretically do Claim Jump all by themselves for a couple of moderate cards and 2ap from a 5ss Minion, which isn't bad.

I wonder about the timing on Practiced Production, if I discard a False Claim marker for PP do I then also discard one for False Claim? I would think that they both resolve during upkeep and that I as the controlling player would determine what order they resolve in, but I don't have the cards in front of me...

[retnab]

I see Ironsides as pretty good this time around!  Eliminate The Leadership being bumped to Doubles is really good for her, reduces the chance of her death giving the enemy VP.

@admiralvorkraft That's something I was wondering about as well.  I think that since they trigger at the same time you should theoretically be able to choose the timing?  So:

1) You must discard a Scheme Marker for False Claim and Practiced Production

2) Remove a Scheme Marker for Practiced Production

3) There is now only 1 False Claim Scheme Marker in play, so you do not need to discard the other.

That's only my assumption, but it makes sense to me with the rules?  It might be a bit strong though, then you can literally get 2 Scheme Markers for 1 AP and a lot of people already see Practiced Productions as really strong.

[Nikodemus]

1 hour ago, admiralvorkraft said:

But one Union Miner can theoretically do Claim Jump all by themselves for a couple of moderate cards and 2ap from a 5ss Minion, which isn't bad.

For sure.  I was mainly jumping at the notion that it can do it for 1AP.

[Bengt]

With Blood Ward Ironsides and one Henchman can be immune to Tail Em until the opponent manage to kill that Mage, which if you delay it enough will not give max VP since it's 1 per turn.

Not really Ironsides specific but three Oxfordians with their current status as 5 SS enforcers is kind of suited for Last Stand. You'll want some beef as well, but cheap backup doesn't hurt.

[spooky_squirrel]

The updates to the schemes are definitely leaving some openings for interesting play. Tail 'Em has has Ironsides written all over it for denial.  Scoring it will require bringing some minions that might normally not enter the fray. It might prompt me to start using Steam Arachnids to not just reduce Df for people around Ironsides, but also to spot them while they stay bogged down. It's similar to using Ironsides to Exhaust opposing forces while keeping them engaged, only it requires using a minion.

Last Stand with an elite denial/control crew is workable, since scoring it will require being careful about killing things (unless someone drops a summoner on the table) and a control-heavy crew (Amina, The Captain, Oxfordian trio, Shastar Vidiya Guards, Angelica) does not bring as much killing power.

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

Seems that I need to read more carefully some rules ?

Well, fortunately i didn't have the time to use them wrongly

[JimO]

On 12/31/2016 at 1:23 PM, retnab said:

I see Ironsides as pretty good this time around!  Eliminate The Leadership being bumped to Doubles is really good for her, reduces the chance of her death giving the enemy VP.

@admiralvorkraft That's something I was wondering about as well.  I think that since they trigger at the same time you should theoretically be able to choose the timing?  So:

1) You must discard a Scheme Marker for False Claim and Practiced Production

2) Remove a Scheme Marker for Practiced Production

3) There is now only 1 False Claim Scheme Marker in play, so you do not need to discard the other.

That's only my assumption, but it makes sense to me with the rules?  It might be a bit strong though, then you can literally get 2 Scheme Markers for 1 AP and a lot of people already see Practiced Productions as really strong.

False Claim triggers "during this turn's upkeep step". Practiced Production triggers "at the end of the turn". The end of turn timing always confuses me a bit, but I think that means you have to remove one of the false claim markers, then you have to remove a marker for practiced production.

[retnab]

I'm not certain about that, since the Upkeep step is also when all "end of turn" effects happen.  Posting it to the rules forum just in case though.

[spooky_squirrel]

12 minutes ago, retnab said:

I'm not certain about that, since the Upkeep step is also when all "end of turn" effects happen.  Posting it to the rules forum just in case though.

That's generally how it's treated. From Page 32 of the PDF (little book):

Quote

1. Upkeep

The Upkeep Step is where the end of the Turn bookkeeping takes place. Effects that do not list a specific duration, or which end at the end of the Turn, end during the Upkeep Step.

In the unlikely event that the order in which multiple effects ending would affect the outcome, then the affected model’s owning player determines the order in which they are resolved. If models from both players are affected, the First Player’s models will resolve their effects first.

So Practiced Production's marker removal would trigger in upkeep. As acting player, you decide order. Discard a False Claim Marker for the Practiced Production upkeep, then check False Claim conditions.

[Mxbedlam]

So ran into a nasty Ironsides list yesterday. my opponent played 

Ironsides (Challenge, Warding Runes)

Amina (warding runes)

2 Guards (well rehearsed)

3 Mages (Shield and Runes as normal)

electric creation

 

Turn 1, creation goes off an pops everyone for a damage for HPM. Then he used Ironsides and Amina to drag models into his gun line range and the guards to push mages into good firing positions. On turn 2 he killed Joss under cover and inside Arcing screen thanks to some great flips. Amina kept Envy shut down and the Well Rehearsed kept the Mech Rider from actually killing anything. All in all, it seems like a fun list for Ironsides. We talked about using Message From the Union in this list over Challenge, since Ironsides wants to stay close to the mages and not do her normal mucking about in the scrum. 

[Bengt]

What did he do with the EC? Because it seems hard/impossible to do just one damage to everyone. If it blows itself up it pulses 3 damage, if someone else kills it it pulses 2 damage, if it ends its activation in base contact with someone it does 1 damage, but with the large bases on the mages you couldn't fit everyone in base contact.

[Mxbedlam]

He shot it with Amina or a guard I believe. 

[LexLock]

13 minutes ago, Bengt said:

What did he do with the EC? Because it seems hard/impossible to do just one damage to everyone. If it blows itself up it pulses 3 damage, if someone else kills it it pulses 2 damage, if it ends its activation in base contact with someone it does 1 damage, but with the large bases on the mages you couldn't fit everyone in base contact.

Maybe just hit the mages? They have Arcane Shield, so activate the EC for activation control and to ping one non mage model and then kill it next to all the mages.

[Bengt]

If you just want to hit the mages Willie is a much better deal than the EC.

[Bengt]

On second thought I guess you can deploy Anima and the Guards in contact with the EC and have the mages within 2". Activate the EC without doing anything and do the damage, then walk away with those three and kill the EC with Anima's (0) tagging the mages. I'm still partial to Willie though.  

[spooky_squirrel]

I've taken to using a Malifaux Raptor to 'turn on' the Guards and Amina. The Mages can ping each other by using their attack action to push each other up the table (bonus points for doing it with the Flesh and Metal ability on the Emissary to Mage 1, then using that Mage to shove the other one up the field).

[Douglas Scoundrels]

Opinions on the new Schemes with Ironsides?

I've only taken Dig Their Graves and Accuse. The former seemed tailor-made for Toni (drag them in with Ironsides while one of your mages lays out a scheme marker). Accuse is a LOT harder since I can't spend two AP to mark models like in Exhaust.

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, Kaiser Senpai said:

Opinions on the new Schemes with Ironsides?

I've only taken Dig Their Graves and Accuse. The former seemed tailor-made for Toni (drag them in with Ironsides while one of your mages lays out a scheme marker). Accuse is a LOT harder since I can't spend two AP to mark models like in Exhaust.

The tricky part about using Accuse is that you have to target things that have not activated yet. Ironsides will keep them engaged all day long (it's what she does), so you'll want to pull things into her and accuse them before they can activate (either in the turn she pulls them in, or early in the next turn). Since taking her trigger is optional, you can avoid accidentally killing something you have accused just by not taking the trigger counterpunch. Alternatively, Accuse things with nearby models before Ironsides activates, and use her activation keeping them nice and close (if they haven't activated yet) or tying up a new set of models (if they have).

[Douglas Scoundrels]

1 hour ago, spooky_squirrel said:

The tricky part about using Accuse is that you have to target things that have not activated yet. Ironsides will keep them engaged all day long (it's what she does), so you'll want to pull things into her and accuse them before they can activate (either in the turn she pulls them in, or early in the next turn). Since taking her trigger is optional, you can avoid accidentally killing something you have accused just by not taking the trigger counterpunch. Alternatively, Accuse things with nearby models before Ironsides activates, and use her activation keeping them nice and close (if they haven't activated yet) or tying up a new set of models (if they have).

My experience was from one game. The errata made him hide his models from Toni as much as possible. The ones she got into it with were either peons or had already activiated. Didn't help that I had to juggle Dig Their Graves as well. It's still a good take against superior AP or a relatively clear board, but I played against the same amount of models on a board with a house close to the middle of the board. I didn't think that Exhaust was terribly easy, but it was something Toni could reliably get 3 on. This change makes it much harder.

[Bengt]

It feels like Toni herself would be very vulnerable to Accuse if you use her as a tarpit. Only protection is to activate her first (if you win Initiative), but I don't think there is that much incentive to do that unless you take Come Get Some.

[Carecalmo]

If you bring the Mages and Warding Runes, she'll be immune to conditions caused by enemy models. Won't that work against Accusation (and Tail 'em as well)?

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, Carecalmo said:

If you bring the Mages and Warding Runes, she'll be immune to conditions caused by enemy models. Won't that work against Accusation (and Tail 'em as well)?

True. While the Blood Ward is powerful I don't find the mages very useful themselves so I forgot about them.

[spooky_squirrel]

4 hours ago, Carecalmo said:

If you bring the Mages and Warding Runes, she'll be immune to conditions caused by enemy models. Won't that work against Accusation (and Tail 'em as well)?

This is exactly what I do with her into Condition environments. The hardest part is keeping range and LOS to the mage.