Levi and the new FAQ

[Patzer]

For all the people complaining about how powerful Levi is, have any of you actually played him? 

I agree that he is one of the better masters,but not the invincible power house you claim. I think it comes down to not knowing how to put him down.

He needs babysitters for his waifs, which are made of paper,  reducing his ability to hire scheme runners. And while a large hiring pool is all well and good, you rarely use it. Partly cos you need babysitters, partly cos the construct upgrade is strictly better. I use neither because I find tally sheet to be more useful. (sometimes I'll take a mech rider) 

Him and his crew end up being elite killers, much in the realm of perdita, and like perdita can be picked apart if you know how to do it. 

I recommend those claiming he's op borrow the models and have a few games against their owner, then re-evaluate.

I think that the consensus on Leveticus is that it is the parts of the whole which makes him so good. It is the fact that he gets all of a ridiculously big hiring pool, two free models, teleport, spike melee damage, and consistent, cover ignoring, range damage, which makes him a bit over the top. If some of those things were to be toned down or taken away, Leveticus would be much closer to par than he is now. And it is worth to stress, he would still probably be a top tier master. 

Whether or not you use his large hiring pool is not really interesting, it is the fact that he has the option to hire from such a large pool of models with ease. Paying for simply 1 model is no worse than paying for a mercenary in any other faction, which provides for some incredible flexibility. And, the construct upgrade is not strictly better. Undead brings models like the Rotten Belle and Datsue Ba, which can carry a lot of water for Leveticus. Belles especially in certain strategies (Reckoning, Headhunter, Collect the Bounty). 

Anyway, I agree with you that there are plenty of ways to beat him and that Leveticus himself have limitations. I also think he is particularly harsh against newer players (elite shooters tend to be), which is part of his infamy. As you said though, facing him is a very good way of solving the Leveticus puzzle. 

Another thing that might be worth pointing out. I think that people are pretty passionate about this since the game as a whole is pretty darn close to balanced. Leveticus (together with some lesser evils) are at the summit of what is considered tinkering with the balance, which don't sit right with most players. All and all, I think he could and should be toned down and that there is plenty of evidence supporting that would be pretty sensible thing to do. 

Edited October 5, 2015 by Patzer

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

This! This is why most of my posts seem negative or complaining about balance. It's because I love this game and it is one of the most balanced and well thought out games for competitive play. That's why I get hung up on Levi. Because he is too good.

[Icemyn]

I guess I will hop in to add my two cents and some anecdotes. 

If we go back to GenCon '14 (I didn't play in '15 because of its structure) I have played around 60 games with Leveticus ~25 of which have been in a tournament setting. I am making a note of the tournament setting because the expectation is a slightly higher caliber of crew selection and player. I have "lost" one time. It was to Victor out of Chicago playing Perdita. I can say with utter certainty that he is too powerful. There are masters and to an extent factions that are helpless against him. Games that are won before deployment in some cases. Some of you won't be convinced for whatever reason and I understand that, I certainly can't hope to play enough games to prove it to everyone. 

As others have said before I think the bulk of Levi's power comes from his hiring pool and the (0) action teleport. I have suggested previously how I would fix his hiring issues so I won't rehash that here. His teleport could be fixed with errata on Ashes and Dust. If Desolate Core was changed to say "killed, not sacrificed" the largest issue with the teleport would be fixed. As it is right now there is no cost to teleporting or drawing cards as there should be. Yes I understand he can still take other undead models and move them up and teleport using them as nodes, but they can't get as far upfield as ashes can or be free like ashes can or be unkillable while upfield like ashes can. 

My $.02
 

[Durza]

What other masters have you played Icemyn and whats your win /loss ratio with them? It's quite possible you are just really good at Malifaux. I've versed Rathnard a lot over the last few years and I have never won a game against him no matter what master he uses, the best I've done is drawn I think twice and I know I'm not the only one with a similar score against him.

[Adanedhel]

Or just get rid of the Teleport action entirely. Sanguine Evocations should be Levi's only truly relevant (0).
If it really is just the teleport/card draw that puts him otp I'm all for removing it in it's whole. It's Levi, dying every turn feels like it is the right thing to do.
 

 

[Bengt]

What I would like to see changed with the Pariahs is to disallow Rare 1 models. Rare 1 models are typically individuals with free will that in most cases have no reason to hang out with Leveticus so it bugs me that they do anyway. I also don't buy that Leveticus is better at mind control than Zoraida.

Alternatively do a white list for each Pariah.

[Oldman lee]

I've just picked up a levi crew more because I like the background to him than his power level  I've not been playing that long just over a month so my question is what makes him so good then as I don't really want to play someone who is seen as op as my friend might not like that and I don't want to lose any lol 

[Kirby]

Oldman, that's probably a better topic on its own rather than extending a 5-pager about the FAQ.  Short answer is that his typical playstyle makes him very hard to permanently remove from the board, he has all the tools needed to kill an enemy model every turn, has the potential to summon a really annoying minion when killing an opponent's model, and he can hire a huge range of things to cover all kinds of strategies and schemes which makes it easier to accomplish victory points on your terms.

[Icemyn]

I've just picked up a levi crew more because I like the background to him than his power level  I've not been playing that long just over a month so my question is what makes him so good then as I don't really want to play someone who is seen as op as my friend might not like that and I don't want to lose any lol 

Leveticus by himself is not overpowered imo. The problem isn't with him or his core crew. Because he has the largest hiring pool in the game it is very easy to power game with him as opposed to other masters. There are alot of people who play Levi I can't think of any two who play the same list even in the same scenario. If you aren't intending to power game Levi will probably be completely fair.

What other masters have you played Icemyn and whats your win /loss ratio with them? It's quite possible you are just really good at Malifaux. I've versed Rathnard a lot over the last few years and I have never won a game against him no matter what master he uses, the best I've done is drawn I think twice and I know I'm not the only one with a similar score against him.

I mostly play outcasts, Daw, Hamelin and Schill would be the masters I play most outside of Levi. I dabble in Neverborn, Guild, TT and ressurs as well. You would be correct in assuming that I don't lose much regardless, but I think that misses the point. With Leveticus there is an ease to the games that I don't see with other masters. Games tend to be closer with other masters and I have to play at a much higher level to achieve generally worse results. I did make a point of mentioning tournament games, or Malifaux being played at a higher level, and Levi is still running roughshod over the field. 

Other masters are bad in certain strategies(Hamelin in Reckoning) or schemes, Leveticus doesn't have that weakness and due to his hiring pool he is a faction unto himself. I think that fact alone breaks the balance of competitive play. If you aren't playing outcasts you likely have 3 or so masters for a 5-6 round tournament, I only need Levi. He has the models to play to any strategy or scheme. If your opponent declares outcasts you have to prepare for Levi in some manner or be playing handicapped, god forbid they don't take Levi and you are handicapped anyway. 

[Durza]

I've just picked up a levi crew more because I like the background to him than his power level  I've not been playing that long just over a month so my question is what makes him so good then as I don't really want to play someone who is seen as op as my friend might not like that and I don't want to lose any lol 

Leveticus by himself is not overpowered imo. The problem isn't with him or his core crew. Because he has the largest hiring pool in the game it is very easy to power game with him as opposed to other masters. There are alot of people who play Levi I can't think of any two who play the same list even in the same scenario. If you aren't intending to power game Levi will probably be completely fair.

What other masters have you played Icemyn and whats your win /loss ratio with them? It's quite possible you are just really good at Malifaux. I've versed Rathnard a lot over the last few years and I have never won a game against him no matter what master he uses, the best I've done is drawn I think twice and I know I'm not the only one with a similar score against him.

I mostly play outcasts, Daw, Hamelin and Schill would be the masters I play most outside of Levi. I dabble in Neverborn, Guild, TT and ressurs as well. You would be correct in assuming that I don't lose much regardless, but I think that misses the point. With Leveticus there is an ease to the games that I don't see with other masters. Games tend to be closer with other masters and I have to play at a much higher level to achieve generally worse results. I did make a point of mentioning tournament games, or Malifaux being played at a higher level, and Levi is still running roughshod over the field. 

Other masters are bad in certain strategies(Hamelin in Reckoning) or schemes, Leveticus doesn't have that weakness and due to his hiring pool he is a faction unto himself. I think that fact alone breaks the balance of competitive play. If you aren't playing outcasts you likely have 3 or so masters for a 5-6 round tournament, I only need Levi. He has the models to play to any strategy or scheme. If your opponent declares outcasts you have to prepare for Levi in some manner or be playing handicapped, god forbid they don't take Levi and you are handicapped anyway. 

I don't think it misses the point, how can you say "I win with Levi 90% of the time, he's too good" when you win 90% of the time anyway?

You do have some solid points other than that though.

[Kadeton]

What other masters have you played Icemyn and whats your win /loss ratio with them? It's quite possible you are just really good at Malifaux. I've versed Rathnard a lot over the last few years and I have never won a game against him no matter what master he uses, the best I've done is drawn I think twice and I know I'm not the only one with a similar score against him.

If it helps for anecdotal reference, I've played a lot of games against Rathnard and I'd say we're quite evenly matched, but the only game in recent memory where he's beaten me when I've played Levy was when he accidentally brought ~60ss of crew to a 50ss game. (It was still a close match.)

I'm pretty convinced that Levy is at the top of the power curve for Masters by my own experience and reports from others, but I don't think he's alone up there. No game with such varied playstyles available will ever be perfectly balanced, and that means someone will inevitably rise to the top as the "strongest" - if Levy were to be knocked down a rung or two, Nicodem or Dreamer would probably be the ones to take the crown instead.

The big thing in Levy's favour during my time with him was that most people simply weren't prepared for what he could do, and couldn't effectively counter him. Now that he's had a plastic release and people are seeing him on the table more, the metagame will adjust itself.

[Icemyn]

I've just picked up a levi crew more because I like the background to him than his power level  I've not been playing that long just over a month so my question is what makes him so good then as I don't really want to play someone who is seen as op as my friend might not like that and I don't want to lose any lol 

Leveticus by himself is not overpowered imo. The problem isn't with him or his core crew. Because he has the largest hiring pool in the game it is very easy to power game with him as opposed to other masters. There are alot of people who play Levi I can't think of any two who play the same list even in the same scenario. If you aren't intending to power game Levi will probably be completely fair.

What other masters have you played Icemyn and whats your win /loss ratio with them? It's quite possible you are just really good at Malifaux. I've versed Rathnard a lot over the last few years and I have never won a game against him no matter what master he uses, the best I've done is drawn I think twice and I know I'm not the only one with a similar score against him.

I mostly play outcasts, Daw, Hamelin and Schill would be the masters I play most outside of Levi. I dabble in Neverborn, Guild, TT and ressurs as well. You would be correct in assuming that I don't lose much regardless, but I think that misses the point. With Leveticus there is an ease to the games that I don't see with other masters. Games tend to be closer with other masters and I have to play at a much higher level to achieve generally worse results. I did make a point of mentioning tournament games, or Malifaux being played at a higher level, and Levi is still running roughshod over the field. 

Other masters are bad in certain strategies(Hamelin in Reckoning) or schemes, Leveticus doesn't have that weakness and due to his hiring pool he is a faction unto himself. I think that fact alone breaks the balance of competitive play. If you aren't playing outcasts you likely have 3 or so masters for a 5-6 round tournament, I only need Levi. He has the models to play to any strategy or scheme. If your opponent declares outcasts you have to prepare for Levi in some manner or be playing handicapped, god forbid they don't take Levi and you are handicapped anyway. 

I don't think it misses the point, how can you say "I win with Levi 90% of the time, he's too good" when you win 90% of the time anyway?

You do have some solid points other than that though.

It's the ease of the wins that I am speaking too. My average differential with Levi is around +6 (If you aren't familiar with tournament play that means I generally win by 6vp or more). With other masters it's closer to a +1or +2 differential, the games are much closer. An analogy would be Levi is Pro Football(whatever version you prefer) where other masters are the Minor Leagues. Sure we are playing the same game, but because of the better skill set available to me I have to play a lot worse to lose. 

 

[Patzer]

I think that is a good analogy Icemyn. Leve needs less to perform at a really high level. In a way other masters cannot. Still, you need to know what you are doping to reach those higher levels of play.

 

[Adran]

Just out of Interest Icemyn

How many times did you charge with levi? and do you think this FAQ would have changed that? 

Not arguing about his power level per say, just how much being able to channel a charge to boost both attacks, (with the possibility to then channel each attack separately as well)

 

[daniello_s]

I'll run Levi again on Thursday as a friend of mine is preparing for UK GT and he is expecting to play against Levi quite often during tournament so asked me if I can bring Levi with me.

To spice up things a bit I decided to use Pariah upgrade for the first time and I chose to bring Pariah of Bone (Belles baby! :D). So I'm tinkering around the crew and more I look at it, more I'm convinced how utterly sick Levi is. I can't think otherwise because my main problem now is whether I want to bring 8 or 9 models to the game and no matter of the choice crew already has: heavy shooting, heavy melee, healing, condition removing, heavy lure option. Now depends on what we flip for strategy/schemes I'll add either one more nasty piece of killing or two scheme runners.

Levi is a bane for our enemies, my Outcast brothers and sisters