Levi and the new FAQ

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I saw plenty of Levi at Adepticon, Nova, and Gencon. So that's my data.

And what I said about summoning didn't mean just his summoning but all summoning. I think across the board summoning should be changed. At least in next edition whenever it happens. There's no way you could make that change now without ending the world for some people.

[daniello_s]

I saw plenty of Levi at Adepticon, Nova, and Gencon. So that's my data.

And what I said about summoning didn't mean just his summoning but all summoning. I think across the board summoning should be changed. At least in next edition whenever it happens. There's no way you could make that change now without ending the world for some people.

Totally agree on that.

[Astrella]

I saw plenty of Levi at Adepticon, Nova, and Gencon. So that's my data.

And what I said about summoning didn't mean just his summoning but all summoning. I think across the board summoning should be changed. At least in next edition whenever it happens. There's no way you could make that change now without ending the world for some people.

Do you know how he performed?

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Also what do you think the issue with summoning as it is now is?

[Fireuser]

What suggestion would you make for summoning?

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I saw plenty of Levi at Adepticon, Nova, and Gencon. So that's my data.

And what I said about summoning didn't mean just his summoning but all summoning. I think across the board summoning should be changed. At least in next edition whenever it happens. There's no way you could make that change now without ending the world for some people.

Do you know how he performed?

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Also what do you think the issue with summoning as it is now is?

Well Levi won Adepticon. Took 2nd at Nova. Don't recall gencon.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

What suggestion would you make for summoning?

Easy, summoned models should always gain insignificant and peon characteristics. That way, you have to still hire a viable crew. Issues I have with Levi and Dreamer, especially but not excluding the other summoners, is that they get to not only out model you, have more models to score with, they also get to hire more tanks. They both can easily hire 3 10+ stone models then just summon the models that'll score. It's not honestly a fair and balanced mode of play when you're digging into this heavy hitting hard to deal with models AND then they just pop out a Insidious Madness late game without any strategics. It not a game ending issue but I think it would really boost non-summoners who I think are the weakest in most cases this edition.

Edited October 2, 2015 by E.T.A. Hoffman

[Fireuser]

So then summoned models could be completely ignored?

[Paddywhack]

Resurrs would need a complete overhaul as we already pay hefty 'tax' for our summoning abilities. 

I only have problems with summons that require no real resources. Hamelin's rats or any other summon that is pretty much an auto succeed without needing anything else to work properly. I'm fine with summons off of scrap and corpse tokens (though, making it not so easy to spam these with certain models would be good). I also would have no problem if all summons came in at half wds (like Nico's). 

Summoning is hard to balance and overall I think its not  horrible this edition bar a few instances that can lead to an NPE.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well in such a system the only models worth summoning would be killers, or models that on summoning were very hard to kill with long melee ranges. I don't necessarily agree that summoning is too easy or powerful. Don't forget last edition Killer masters were considered the best and just as powerful because they didn't have to hire a killer, and if they did it was doubly as effective, and in low SS games, much as the common wisdom is that summoners now are unbalancing the lower the SS you go, so too was the exact same said of killers last edition.

I think, personally, that if there is an issue with summoning it's because what, and who can summon, wasn't more tightly controlled. I personally think every master that can summon should have been given a keyword that they could summon, and then, regardless of what they could have done last edition, very model that could be summoned should have been examined. I think we are already hitting that issue. I remember arguing very forcefully that Nicodem shouldn't have been able to summon every undead, but limit him to a keyword, which certainly could be on the vast majority of undead. And in a podcast leading up to book 3's release Justin mentioned that there was a very limited amount of undead this time around in the lesser section, because Nicodem and Leveticus didn't need to be more powerful.

That's my personal opinion anyway.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Again, it cannot happen this edition. Because, a total rebalancing would be needed. True, you could achieve a similar effect by changing the how of current summoners. Yet, I feel in the end models that score for you need to be planned. I think balancing any crew that can rely on late game just tossing out models to score isn't fair. This is game of AP budgeting. How can I get X down with Y number of AP. Summoners have a extreme advantage currently with this. I think a big mistake was the loosing of resources as needed to summon. Ressers who need Corpse and other's who need Scrap have to plan a little bit more than those who don't. I think Wyrd sensed this imbalanced recently because a lot of new ways of generating FREE counter is starting to emerge. The whole, take some number of wounds on this model or that, as a way of mitigating the power of summoners haven't really panned out I think. There's plenty of ways of reducing the costs so that the models you make aren't penalized. 

You could also maybe fix summoning by saying these models cannot heal. Thus you need a counter or you come in with less wounds. This would also require many models to be rewritten. That's why it's not something worth worrying about till next edition drops in hopefully the next 2 years.

Back to Levi. If the waifs costed maybe 2 points each, that might also tip the scales back a bit. Though, in the end, it's not any one thing he does that makes him too much. It's the culmination of everything.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree that outside of certain circumstances, Molly for example, most summoning that doesn't require triple resources to achieve (IE an AP or 0 AP dedicated to the action and nothing else, a specific suit achievable via card or stone, and a physical marker of some kind) can get a little nuts.

On Levi, I very much agree. When the waifs were argued as a Tax on playing Levi and should therefore be free left me speechless when it occurred. When during the open beta seishin were hirable at 2SS I argued stridently they shouldn't have been because Activation control is so strong in this game. I personally felt if the waifs were going to be free, they should have been peons, and insignificant, with no engagement range, and Levi should have had a special rule that when he activated he got to divide his 3 AP amongst himself, or in anyway he wanted with his waifs, so that they didn't get separate activations for free. I very much agree with you that outside some more data this edition is done, and barring repeated data points coming up to demonstrate something is over the line, we shouldn't expect changes. But I also agree that from the limited data I've seen that Levi is too strong because of a variety of factors that just in total add up to the powerhouse he is.

[daniello_s]

Main problem with summoning is that fairly often the 50SS game each changes to 50SS vs 60SS on Turn 1 and later in the game the point gap is getting bigger. Not to mention activation control which comes as second advantage on the summoners side. Those two things makes a game pretty unbalanced especially when summoning player has lots of experience.

Last time I played against Kirai and I really didn't know how to deal with combo of summoning Kirai+Datsue Ba and counter strike of Ikiryo and Bete so I decided not to attack almost a whole game but even despite Mike's poor cards for summoning he was able to outactivate and overrun me easily.

 

 

[Astrella]

Well killing stuff also gives you SS advantage and activation advantage, summoning is just a different way of achieving that.

[daniello_s]

Thing is that summoners don't really mind you killing their stuff as long as they can summon models and win this war of attrition. And thy can summon a lot as their Cache is very high and they start the game almost always with 7SS pool.

[katadder]

maybe from tourneys listed its a US problem then as he doesnt make many appearances in the UK scene from what I have seen mostly because outcasts have masters much better at doing things. would rather face levi than hamelin or jack daw

as said by people, go after his waifs or anchors and he is nowhere near as good. 

[Omenbringer]

Well in such a system the only models worth summoning would be killers, or models that on summoning were very hard to kill with long melee ranges. I don't necessarily agree that summoning is too easy or powerful. Don't forget last edition Killer masters were considered the best and just as powerful because they didn't have to hire a killer, and if they did it was doubly as effective, and in low SS games, much as the common wisdom is that summoners now are unbalancing the lower the SS you go, so too was the exact same said of killers last edition.

I think, personally, that if there is an issue with summoning it's because what, and who can summon, wasn't more tightly controlled. I personally think every master that can summon should have been given a keyword that they could summon, and then, regardless of what they could have done last edition, very model that could be summoned should have been examined. I think we are already hitting that issue. I remember arguing very forcefully that Nicodem shouldn't have been able to summon every undead, but limit him to a keyword, which certainly could be on the vast majority of undead. And in a podcast leading up to book 3's release Justin mentioned that there was a very limited amount of undead this time around in the lesser section, because Nicodem and Leveticus didn't need to be more powerful.

That's my personal opinion anyway.

I definitely agree that the issue with most summoners is the size of their available pools. As more models are released these summoners will have an increasing influence on design. Even requiring resource expenditure isn't necessarily a good constraint, since often times the required resource (i.e. scrap or corpse counters) is dropped upon the death of the summoned model. Truthfully (and there will likely be plenty of opposition to this) I think Som'er is a good example of a fairly well balanced summoner (looking at just his summoning). He can summon exactly one model, it requires at least one of the same model being summoned within range to fuel, both required resource model and summoned model are damaged upon success reducing their effectiveness/ durability until healed (50% reduction in Wounds until healed), and they have the normal can't interact on the turn they are summoned prohibition.

[Kirby]

Some are saying that summoning is too much because of the array of summons available, but Leveticus can only summon one thing: Abominations.  No matter which upgrade you take (both of which are limited resources and cost SS to get), it also costs (1) and a decently high Crow or soulstone to do it from range.  And it's restricted to either upon killing something else or summoning off of a scrap marker.  That sounds like three resources to me.  Unless there's a pile of half-dead Bayou Gremlins, Leveticus typically isn't killing more than one target per turn and often enough is killing less than 1 by whittling down big beaters and things like that.

Yes in a perfect setup you can get four of them in one area that somehow were completely ignored over the course of a couple of turns and bring in a Desolation Engine, but honestly I can't think of too many situations where just having four of the smaller ones out being annoyances and scheme runners isn't a better option.

[daniello_s]

Levi is the smallest problem when considering the whole summoning issue. It is more about all those 'specialised' master who can produce from substantial to crazy amount of additional models throughout the game

[Fetid Strumpet]

And yet those masters aren't the ones constantly winning tournaments. Just a thought, as we should probably move this topic back more firmly on Levi.

I think E.T.A.'s point in regards to levi, is an attack action which can do decent damage, and as an additional effect, summons a model off the death is a little silly. I don't think anyone has an issue with Levi summoning an abomination off a scrap, and using an AP to do so. I believe his point was being able to summon off the same action that you spent to kill a model is too efficient. He can correct me on this point if I misunderstood.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

And yet those masters aren't the ones constantly winning tournaments. Just a thought, as we should probably move this topic back more firmly on Levi.

I think E.T.A.'s point in regards to levi, is an attack action which can do decent damage, and as an additional effect, summons a model off the death is a little silly. I don't think anyone has an issue with Levi summoning an abomination off a scrap, and using an AP to do so. I believe his point was being able to summon off the same action that you spent to kill a model is too efficient. He can correct me on this point if I misunderstood.

It's ONE of many aspects that I think together make Levi too good. In and of itself, it's not over power. Yet when you add in all the hiring potential, and damage output and resilience, then its nutty. I'm not saying is summoning IS overpowered, but it is the most efficient of all the summoners. He creates fully wounded models the same moment he removes one of yours so it's a double whammy to the activation count. True, Dreamer can summon 3 models at once for next to nothing but the models have 1 wound.

[admiralvorkraft]

Sonnia and (resser) McMourning can both summon through killing models, but they both have additional requirements - Burning + stone, and Poison respectively. Kaeris can summon off of kills requiring Burning and a trigger, Lilith can summon models when her crew kills something. The community consensus is that they are strong-but-balanced (Sonnia, McM, Lilith) or not worth it (Kaeris).

I don't have anything to directly contribute, just some context that I thought I'd throw out there.

[Durza]

I'd suggest starting a new thread if you want to keep discussing summoning and keep this one about how broken Levi is.

 

Personally I've only played as Levi twice, and against him once, I'd say he's definitely powerful, and I'm not sure he really needed this buff, but I'm hardly the most qualified person to comment.

[valhallan42nd]

Thing is that summoners don't really mind you killing their stuff as long as they can summon models and win this war of attrition. And thy can summon a lot as their Cache is very high and they start the game almost always with 7SS pool.

We also hire fewer models and upgrades (to get those stones), and our models are generally weaker -stone for stone- than a typical model from another faction. We're resilient, and that's our main trick. Summoning reinforces that main trick

[daniello_s]

Thing is that summoners don't really mind you killing their stuff as long as they can summon models and win this war of attrition. And thy can summon a lot as their Cache is very high and they start the game almost always with 7SS pool.

We also hire fewer models and upgrades (to get those stones), and our models are generally weaker -stone for stone- than a typical model from another faction. We're resilient, and that's our main trick. Summoning reinforces that main trick

If only it was a true...

Typical 'core' crew for Resser summoner is: 2x Belle, Nurse, Chiaki which is 21SS worth of points and gives you all necessary support you need - luring, healing/paralyzing and condition removal. It is enough points to fill it with 1 or 2 scheme runners and summoning supporting model like Mortimer plus all necessary upgrades. So you start typically with one activation less than opponent but with the turn 1 you are at least equal with activation or even better. And you don't activate anything weak but models like Punk Zombie or The Hanged. And next turn you do same or similar trick...

Anyway, I think we should drop overall summoning argument here and now and let us not spam Levi's topic anymore.

[4554551//]

For all the people complaining about how powerful Levi is, have any of you actually played him? 

I agree that he is one of the better masters,but not the invincible power house you claim. I think it comes down to not knowing how to put him down.

He needs babysitters for his waifs, which are made of paper,  reducing his ability to hire scheme runners. And while a large hiring pool is all well and good, you rarely use it. Partly cos you need babysitters, partly cos the construct upgrade is strictly better. I use neither because I find tally sheet to be more useful. (sometimes I'll take a mech rider) 

Him and his crew end up being elite killers, much in the realm of perdita, and like perdita can be picked apart if you know how to do it. 

I recommend those claiming he's op borrow the models and have a few games against their owner, then re-evaluate.