Levi and the new FAQ

[Rurouni Benshin]

So.. Leveticus can channel a charge (which is huge) but also channel both of the attacks? Wow. 

Wait... what...?

*reads rest of thread*

*foaming of the mouth ensues*

*Ahem*, Excuse me while I put Levi at the head of my "Models to Paint List"

[Dogmantra]

I am genuinely interested to hear a situation where you would charge an enemy and then not re-bury yourself, because in that case it doesn't matter whether you channel once or twice for a charge since you get all your wounds back anyway.

The way I see it, the majority of the time you're strongly encouraged to rebury, which means that only taking 4 wounds for your channeling that turn (2 for charge, 2 for next attack) rather than 6 (2 for each charge attack and 2 for your third) is a moot point because you're back up to full anyway.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Dogmantra

[Rurouni Benshin]

I am genuinely interested to hear a situation where you would charge an enemy and then not re-bury yourself, because in that case it doesn't matter whether you channel once or twice for a charge since you get all your wounds back anyway.

Some strategies and schemes require quarters and scheme markers to be uncontested, or not within a certain distance of enemy models.  Other instances could be because you might not have another 6 ss model within range of the Waif for him to come back.  It's largely situational, but I'm sure it happens from time to time.

 

[Astrella]

dont think my levi has ever charged. he has been in melee but not of his own choice but charging with levi, hasnt happened for me yet.

its interesting though that he can channel a charge as thats his action, but if you charge brewie from outside his aura you still have to do drinking contest, thats almost contradictory

I think you might have misread that FAQ entry, if you charge from outside Brewie's aura you don't have to test for declaring a charge, but you do have to test for declaring each of the two attacks from charge.

(I would like to see one more clarification on Drinking Contest though, namely that you only have to test if you declare an action other than One on the House, cause purely RAW as of now you just have to keep testing until you pass since you declare One on the House as well.)

[Sklertic]

In 1.5 it was Hamelin, now it's Leveticus. Why does Outcasts always get the stupidly powerful stuff?

[Insidiously Mad]

you spelt Neverborn wrong

[Fetid Strumpet]

In 1.5 it was Hamelin, now it's Leveticus. Why does Outcasts always get the stupidly powerful stuff?

Because the design Philosophy in 1.0 in the very first book of Outcast masters were they break the rules of the game. Viktoria had 2 full Masters. Leveticus couldn't draw cards outside his mechanics and could almost never be killed. Hamelin had multiple infinite loop abilities, and the ability to summon swarms and swarms of models in an era when summoning was exceptionally difficult. I can't comment on Somer as I didn't play against him much.

Those exceptions to the rules can often prove VERY powerful because they operate outside the expected scope of the game and interact with it in odd ways. Like in 1.0 of not being able to get Assassinate scheme points against the Viks, and later the Dreamer, unless you killed BOTH of the masters in the opposing crew. So Both Viks or Both the Dreamer and Lord Chompy Bits.

In order to remain flavorful some of those rules exceptions were brought over into 2.0, while many of the restrictions like all outcast masters only having very specific models they could hire from were abandoned.

I'm not denigrating Outcasts or demanding any change, just explaining where some of the power they have comes from in my perception.

[Paddywhack]

In 1.5 it was Hamelin, now it's Leveticus. Why does Outcasts always get the stupidly powerful stuff?

"Hamelin and Leveticus. Why does Outcasts always get the stupidly powerful stuff?"

Fixed that for you. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Paddywhack

[Omenbringer]

I see both points here, ad while it might be a clarification, absolutely no one I know of EVER tried to do this either during testing or after, which means, and I admit I could be wrong, that if nothing else this is an ability that wasn't fully tested. The ruling on focus now surprises me as with this as precedent, aside from weasely wording, why exactly is it not OP for one of the most, if not THE most powerful master in the game to get such a boost, with an almost negligible cost, when other models cannot focus, and get the bonus on both attacks on the charge?

I'm with ETA that this seems bonkers to me. Time will tell though.

Agree completely and also think it is more than a bit at odds with the previous faq entry for the Brew Master.

[Astrella]

How is it at odds with the brewmaster faq?

[Dogmantra]

Agree completely and also think it is more than a bit at odds with the previous faq entry for the Brew Master.

page 38 big rulebook Actions Causing Actions:

Some Actions will force or allow a model to take another Action. If an Action calls for another Action to be taken (such as Charge or "Make a New Entry") then the additional Action or Actions do not cost any AP. The original Action is not considered resolved until the new Actions are also resolved.

Some Abilities may force models to do something when declaring an Action (such as taking a duel for Manipulative). For these Abilities, each new Action generated triggers the Ability separately.

The first paragraph is why Leveticus can channel a charge for positives to both attacks. Channel grants the bonus "for the duration of the action", and a charge is not considered resolved until both attacks are. It's exactly the same thing that gives him to horror duels on an attack he channeled, for example.

The second paragraph is the relevant bit for the Brewmaster FAQ: each new attack generated from a charge triggers Drinking Contest separately, as stated. This paragraph is also relevant to Leveticus inasmuch as it allows him to channel each charge attack separately if he wishes, but is irrelevant to what happens when he channels the charge as a whole.

It isn't at odds at all, it refers to a different rule (albeit around the same sort of thing).

And just to point out why Focus doesn't do the same thing to a Charge, page 39 big rulebook, Focus:

(1) Focus: The model gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: "Focused +1: This model may remove this Condition when declaring an Action to gain a number of to the Action's duel and damage flip equal to the value of the Focused Condition removed."

And since Charge does not have a duel or damage flip itself (it simply allows you to take attack actions, which do), you can spend focus on it, but it won't do anything.

 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Dogmantra

[Omenbringer]

I have already argued the Brewmaster ruling years ago (before the official faq entry finalized it) and dont care to go down the rabbit hole again. I find it at odds and this one as well.

[Tawg]

The trigger only gives up to , but if you channeled when declaring the charge that's another , and if you channeled the attack also that's another , so Levi can have a base total of  to the damage flip before factoring in anything like HtW or whatever / you might have gotten from the flip itself.

Though this is a bit of a double edged sword in that every card you flip increases your chances of drawing the black joker.

Right.  My question wasn't how many he could generate, it was how many cards could be flipped max.  I was asking if there was a limit, because you made it look/sound like you could potentially be flipping (As you stated previously with Levi generating 5x Positive twist) 6 cards choosing the highest.  But I just found the rule on page 27 of the main book, so my question is answered anyways:

"The maximum number of cards a model may flip is four, regardless of the number of Fate modifiers in effect."  That's what I was looking for.

 

(I would like to see one more clarification on Drinking Contest though, namely that you only have to test if you declare an action other than One on the House, cause purely RAW as of now you just have to keep testing until you pass since you declare One on the House as well.)

Well Brewmaster says that if you attempt an action you must pass the TN 12 Wp duel or take the (1) On the House action INSTEAD.  So while it doesn't state in the rule that you stop testing, the result would be the same in the end for the model, they are taking the On the House action pass or fail, once they've failed at all.  The only real difference that could matter in that case is if you are suppose to be testing Wp past the first, which would effectively just be burning cards for the player forced to continue Wp duels for no reason.  The end result will be the same even if they subsequently pass 50 more Wp test.  But I think it's implied that the Declaration of the a skill is the first event of the chain, and that when you subsequently take the (1) On the House action you are not "declaring" it, although looking at this thread it is clear the term declared is less solid of a point than we may consider it (As with Brewmaster himself and charges interaction).  But I think the simplest way to rule it, or not to break the game, you would have to assume the ability does not infinitely loop into itself forcing a player to flip cards until they pass.

[santaclaws01]

dont think my levi has ever charged. he has been in melee but not of his own choice but charging with levi, hasnt happened for me yet.

its interesting though that he can channel a charge as thats his action, but if you charge brewie from outside his aura you still have to do drinking contest, thats almost contradictory

I think you might have misread that FAQ entry, if you charge from outside Brewie's aura you don't have to test for declaring a charge, but you do have to test for declaring each of the two attacks from charge.

(I would like to see one more clarification on Drinking Contest though, namely that you only have to test if you declare an action other than One on the House, cause purely RAW as of now you just have to keep testing until you pass since you declare One on the House as well.)

That could be explained as retroactively changing the declared action, because it says you take On The House instead of the original action.

[Sklertic]

One of my regular opponents play Leve once in a while, and he doesn't always charge in a match, but I don't think that's a good argument for it not being really powerful. Some games I don't have to rebuild corpus with Yan Lo, that doesn't mean the ability isn't incredible.

As for the change, it is what it is. Just please don't start advocating for focus to receive a similar change (not saying you are, I just smell it on the wind).

(Ps: pls make Executioner either cheaper or faster....you bastards!)

Edited September 29, 2015 by Sklertic

[katadder]

How is it at odds with the brewmaster faq?

well channel is for the charge action so effects both, brewies if declare an action within the aura but if you declare a charge from outside then in theory you wouldnt do it, however it seems you declare a charge and then declare attack actions.

just seems odd, as the action is a charge, if you charge in from outside you should at least get that 1 turn of attacks, then from then on you are likely to be stuck in the aura.

Edited September 29, 2015 by katadder

[Adran]

On the house happens off you declaring an action. Every time you declare an action., you have to take the on the house test. This works for charges, Flurries, onslaught triggers and so forth which all tell you to take a new action as part of that action. 

Likewise the Cursed upgrades all tell you when you take a certain type of Action you take damage. 

Channel is worded differently. It effects all the duels that occur within that action. The actions taking actions call out box is quite Clear (to me at least), the first action isn't over until any actions it creates are over, but the new actions are actions in their own right

 

They are completely consistent with their wording, 

 

(PS Sommer broke the rules hard as well, and had early Errata. Drawing your whole deck and only having 13s and the red joker in it make for a very strong turn apparently...)

Edited September 29, 2015 by Adran

[Myyrä]

just seems odd, as the action is a charge, if you charge in from outside you should at least get that 1 turn of attacks, then from then on you are likely to be stuck in the aura.

Not according to rules you shouldn't.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Hey folks! Let's remember to keep it civil. Thanks!

[daniello_s]

Hey folks! Let's remember to keep it civil. Thanks!

And hands off Levi! He must stay broken so we, Outcasts, can torment others easily

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Hey folks! Let's remember to keep it civil. Thanks!

And hands off Levi! He must stay broken so we, Outcasts, can torment others easily

When did it get uncivil? I HATE YOU MODERATOR! You take all my funs! JK!LOL!#ILUVMODS/NervousLaugh

Lol, what do you mean? We have DAW! and Schill! Honestly, what I've noticed playing Levi is that people let him do whatever he wants I think because they fear him too much. For instance, do you have any idea how few people will use a SS to put his damage (from gun) at a negative flip?! This is a great counter and hardly anyone uses it.

But, I do think levi does just too many things.

He's got great melee, the best summoning (it works off of killing so its arguably the most efficient), excellent range support, nearly impossible to kill without running specific hard counters which means you knew you were going to face him, the largest hiring pool and thus the best answers to almost every scheme and strategy, the most mobility of any master (he can teleport 10" to a model, Ashes and Dust, at no cost to anyone except he can't make a waif but that can really be worth the trade and not to mention he unburies next to waifs who if you deploy around the board means he can be anywhere), and if you set it up right can do a major card draw turn 1 and 2. 

If his teleport was taken away, the 10" one I think that would really do a lot to fix him. He's already got major board control with the burying. If he couldn't just jump to the Ashes I think he's have to plan a lot more about where he's going to go. This means he can't always use all his AP to just kill without planning. Also, make his hire everything upgrades more expensive.

That and I think summoning in general needs to be changed so that summoned models can never earn you points. But hey, I'm a radical and challenges the norm! That's why I'm running for president as Trumps VP XD

[Patzer]

Hey folks! Let's remember to keep it civil. Thanks!

And hands off Levi! He must stay broken so we, Outcasts, can torment others easily

If his teleport was taken away, the 10" one I think that would really do a lot to fix him. He's already got major board control with the burying. If he couldn't just jump to the Ashes I think he's have to plan a lot more about where he's going to go. This means he can't always use all his AP to just kill without planning. Also, make his hire everything upgrades more expensive.

That and I think summoning in general needs to be changed so that summoned models can never earn you points. But hey, I'm a radical and challenges the norm! That's why I'm running for president as Trumps VP XD

I agree with two out of three things. Getting rid of the teleport sure would fix a lot of his problems, while not being too much for him, as he still can unbury almost anywhere. Killing undead could replenish wounds, or something. Some kind of restriction to his hiring would be nice too, as of now it simply opens up too many options. Like infiltration (4) faction x (so no cross faction hiring), construct or undead. Still limited. Upped cost to 2-3. I don't agree with the summoning cuddle, since there is other masters who can do similar things and it still requires suits from Leve's part. Anyway, teleport and hiring are the main problems in my book. As we all shall remember, beta is over and players simply have to deal with him, as he is, for now. But I REALLY think Lynch got cuddled for way less than this... 

[Astrella]

Is Levi being disruptive though? Like, is he consistently scoring top in tournaments and such. Is he making other masters just not be taken? (I honestly don't know, just curious if there is any data on it.)

[katadder]

havent seen him much in our tourneys tbh. faced him once and if remembered hard cover on top of negative would have actually beaten him

certainly isnt a majorly used master though, see more jack daw, hamelin and viks from the outcasts

[kross1]

Levi is a noob-stomper, plain and simple. Once you understand how he works he becomes quite beatable. Expect to lose a model a turn and either go after his waif or go after his Anchors. If you have an opportunity to put some damage on Levi before he activates do it, he loses alot of effectiveness that way.