Levi and the new FAQ

[santaclaws01]

If you read the dumb luck as it is written. The damage reduction, SS use and everything should reduce the damage the gremlin suffers. Yet it was ruled against that for the sake of the game. The Levi charge + channel was however ruled in favor of Levi. Which makes it a buff. 

I'm curious what you mean by it was ruled that way for the sake of the game?

[Patzer]

Can Leve Channel on the 2 taken actions though. He declares a charges, while declaring the charge he takes 2 damage from channel and gets the positives, then, while charging he gets to take two (NB! it is not declare). Channel only applies when you declare an action. So I am not to sure that he gets to Channel during the charge. At least I wouldn't rule it like he could. 

Edit. To clarify with an example. If a model got Firing Squad Injustice on it and declares a charge, it won't suffer damage while taking the two attack actions. However, if a model got Drowning Injustice on it and declares a charge, it will suffer two damage from declaring the tactical action charge, but while taking the two subsequent (attack) actions. 

Yes. You can channel before declaring any action. Declaring an action is part of taking the action. If you do not declare it it is unable to be taken. It's just a foregone conclusion that the attack is being declared and what model it is targeting with things like Charge because they have to be on the same target. As for your example about Firing Squad Injustice, the models will take 2 damage per attack action from the charge.

I am not convinced. The declare/take distinction seems pretty intact to me still. Nevertheless, if you are correct, I am would be a very happy Jack Daw player, and less happy Leveticus player (since Channel on every taken action in a Charge seems b-s good to me). 

If you read the dumb luck as it is written. The damage reduction, SS use and everything should reduce the damage the gremlin suffers. Yet it was ruled against that for the sake of the game. The Levi charge + channel was however ruled in favor of Levi. Which makes it a buff. 

I'm curious what you mean by it was ruled that way for the sake of the game?

I think he meant that it would lessen the negative effects of Dumb Luck, which would be a power boost for all models with Dumb Luck. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Patzer

[santaclaws01]

Can Leve Channel on the 2 taken actions though. He declares a charges, while declaring the charge he takes 2 damage from channel and gets the positives, then, while charging he gets to take two (NB! it is not declare). Channel only applies when you declare an action. So I am not to sure that he gets to Channel during the charge. At least I wouldn't rule it like he could. 

Edit. To clarify with an example. If a model got Firing Squad Injustice on it and declares a charge, it won't suffer damage while taking the two attack actions. However, if a model got Drowning Injustice on it and declares a charge, it will suffer two damage from declaring the tactical action charge, but while taking the two subsequent (attack) actions. 

Yes. You can channel before declaring any action. Declaring an action is part of taking the action. If you do not declare it it is unable to be taken. It's just a foregone conclusion that the attack is being declared and what model it is targeting with things like Charge because they have to be on the same target. As for your example about Firing Squad Injustice, the models will take 2 damage per attack action from the charge.

I am not convinced. The declare/taken distinction seems pretty intact to me still. Nevertheless, if you are correct, I am would be a very happy Jack Daw player, and less happy Leveticus player (since Channel on every taken action seems b-s good to me). 

If you read the dumb luck as it is written. The damage reduction, SS use and everything should reduce the damage the gremlin suffers. Yet it was ruled against that for the sake of the game. The Levi charge + channel was however ruled in favor of Levi. Which makes it a buff. 

I'm curious what you mean by it was ruled that way for the sake of the game?

I think he meant that it would lessen the negative effects of Dumb Luck, which would be a power boost for all models with Dumb Luck. 

Per the rule book the first step of taking an action is declaring the action and spending AP.

As for the Dumb Luck thing, it definitely is the worse of the two options for models with Dumb Luck, but to say it was ruled that way in favor the game seems to imply that Wyrd just forgot about something as prolific as damage reduction and prevention while making the ability. I find it hard to believe that that wasn't the intent when it was made.

 

[zFiend]

So.. Leveticus can channel a charge (which is huge) but also channel both of the attacks? Wow. 

[Patzer]

Per the rule book the first step of taking an action is declaring the action and spending AP.

This we agree on. Lets look at charge. 
(2) Charge: Target model within LoS. Move this model up to its Cg in a straight line. This model must end the move with the target model within its engagement range or this action may not be taken. This model then takes two Range y Attack Actions against the target model. Each of these Actions must have an AP cost of 1.
Charge doesn't state that two action are declare, rather they are taken (as a part of the whole declared tactical action Charge). That is, the only action being declared is the charge actions. Thus, my reasoning for Leve only being able to Channel once while declaring a charge, and models not taking damage while taking the two subsequent actions while having Firing Squad Injustice attached. 

[MasterDisaster]

he has 8 wounds and 5 defense.

he is very squishy for a master

Try and score Assassinate on him. I dare you!

[santaclaws01]

 Per the rule book the first step of taking an action is declaring the action and spending AP.

This we agree on. Lets look at charge. 
(2) Charge: Target model within LoS. Move this model up to its Cg in a straight line. This model must end the move with the target model within its engagement range or this action may not be taken. This model then takes two Range y Attack Actions against the target model. Each of these Actions must have an AP cost of 1.
Charge doesn't state that two action are declare, rather they are taken (as a part of the whole declared tactical action Charge). That is, the only action being declared is the charge actions. Thus, my reasoning for Leve only being able to Channel once while declaring a charge, and models not taking damage while taking the two subsequent actions while having Firing Squad Injustice attached. 

If you don't declare the action you are taking then how do you take any action? There are models that have more than one possible attack action they can take after charging. When you go to take an action you have to declare which action you are taking.

[zFiend]

I mean this with no offense. But I think you are seriously rules lawyering right now or playing the devils advocate. I think Pantser has more than well enough dismantled the fact that Leveticus seriously can't channel a channeled charge attack actions.  

[Astrella]

there's strong hints that all actions are declared, look at the brewmaster Drinking Contest ruling for example: Drinking Contest: blabla which declare an action must succeed blabla

and from the errata:

1) Q: If the Brewmaster has used the Drinking Contest Action and a model declares a Charge against him from outside of the three inch aura, will it have to take a Wp duel to Attack the Brewmaster with the Attacks generated by the Charge Action if it ends the Charge inside the aura?
A: Yes.

2) Q: If the Brewmaster has used the Drinking Contest Action and is targeted by a Charge, what happens if the charging model fails one (or more) of the duels caused by Drinking Contest?
A: If the model fails the Drinking Contest duel, it must take the (1) On the House Action instead of making an Attack. The model would test separately for each Attack. So, if a model charged the Brewmaster and failed the Drinking Contest duel on its first Attack, it would need to take the On the House Action instead of making the first Attack, but it would then test again for its second Attack.

So I feel by the same reasoning Levi could channel both the charge, and the individual attacks.

 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Astrella

[Patzer]

Per the rule book the first step of taking an action is declaring the action and spending AP.

This we agree on. Lets look at charge. 
(2) Charge: Target model within LoS. Move this model up to its Cg in a straight line. This model must end the move with the target model within its engagement range or this action may not be taken. This model then takes two Range y Attack Actions against the target model. Each of these Actions must have an AP cost of 1.
Charge doesn't state that two action are declare, rather they are taken (as a part of the whole declared tactical action Charge). That is, the only action being declared is the charge actions. Thus, my reasoning for Leve only being able to Channel once while declaring a charge, and models not taking damage while taking the two subsequent actions while having Firing Squad Injustice attached. 

If you don't declare the action you are taking then how do you take any action? There are models that have more than one possible attack action they can take after charging. When you go to take an action you have to declare which action you are taking.

One takes action (a) and then action (b), in the declared action Charge. 

[santaclaws01]

I mean this with no offense. But I think you are seriously rules lawyering right now or playing the devils advocate. I think Pantser has more than well enough dismantled the fact that Leveticus seriously can't channel a channeled charge attack actions.  

None taken, but I'm going to have to disagree that he's dismantled that, as currently his only support of models not declaring the attack actions from charge is that it says take instead of declare. Also, as Asterlla just refrenced, the FAQ on Drinking Contest pretty definitively states that you declare the attack actions you take from charge.

[zFiend]

Thank you.  I will keep on reading this thread with great interest. 

[santaclaws01]

If you don't declare the action you are taking then how do you take any action? There are models that have more than one possible attack action they can take after charging. When you go to take an action you have to declare which action you are taking.

One takes action (a) and then action (b), in the declared action Charge. 

But you need to declare which action you are taking. Taelor for example has two possible actions she can take when she charges. After the she charges you declare which action will be taken. The very act of saying you're taking action (a) instead of action (b) is declaring action (a).

[Patzer]

 

there's strong hints that all actions are declared, look at the brewmaster Drinking Contest ruling for example: Drinking Contest: blabla which declare an action must succeed blabla

and from the errata:

1) Q: If the Brewmaster has used the Drinking Contest Action and a model declares a Charge against him from outside of the three inch aura, will it have to take a Wp duel to Attack the Brewmaster with the Attacks generated by the Charge Action if it ends the Charge inside the aura?
A: Yes.

2) Q: If the Brewmaster has used the Drinking Contest Action and is targeted by a Charge, what happens if the charging model fails one (or more) of the duels caused by Drinking Contest?
A: If the model fails the Drinking Contest duel, it must take the (1) On the House Action instead of making an Attack. The model would test separately for each Attack. So, if a model charged the Brewmaster and failed the Drinking Contest duel on its first Attack, it would need to take the On the House Action instead of making the first Attack, but it would then test again for its second Attack.

So I feel by the same reasoning Levi could channel both the charge, and the individual attacks.

 

Can't overcome the Brewmaster argument. I am convinced. Nice work gang! Jack Daw got a "boost" too then... 

[zFiend]

Wow. Guess we are done here then. Leveticus got a buff on top of a buff. That's great especially since he is so squishy he needs more offensive capabilities.  

[Adran]

I'm going to say you're being a little over the top. 

How often have you seen Levi Charge? Its not his most used action by a long way. So even if it is better than you thought, its not drastically increasing his power level. 

(And I'm fairly happy with my opponent channeling his charge and each attach in the charge, means he doesn't have the wounds left to channel his third AP)

 

And I've always played Daw the way explend here, since that's the rules, so no boost for me.

[Math Mathonwy]

(And I'm fairly happy with my opponent channeling his charge and each attach in the charge, means he doesn't have the wounds left to channel his third AP)

I believe that the point here is that he Channels once and gets the bonus to everything that happens during the Charge (so any targeting duels as well as for both attacks) at the cost of 2 Wounds

[Dogmantra]

Channeling a charge and then the attacks from the charge seems like almost a nonissue. You can only flip a max of four cards, so unless you've got a negative somehow, the second channel only gives one  to the duel,  and you're going to have a cheatable damage flip anyway. Plus as mentioned above, do it to both charge attacks and he can't channel his 3rd AP.

he has 8 wounds and 5 defense.

he is very squishy for a master

Try and score Assassinate on him. I dare you!

Yeah, I already sort of had that experience and I agree it's difficult.

I did explain what I meant by leveticus being squishy earlier in the thread. As a model, it is easy to deplete his wounds, especially compared to other masters. Of course, he can just bury and heal up, but that was my entire point: because he's easy to reduce to 0 wounds, especially after he's activated, he's encouraged to act early then bury so he doesn't lose a waif, meaning that he isn't going to exert any tangible control for the rest of the turn. Compare to someone like Mah who gets a 1ap charge and then two attacks, and sits there for the rest of the turn with a 3" melee range. They're both gonna get a kill, but Mah is going to shut down that area too.

[Adran]

he has 8 wounds and 5 defense.

he is very squishy for a master

Try and score Assassinate on him. I dare you!

Its really easy. Unless you mean "Try and score 3 points for assasinate", which is just this side of impossible. 

Most players don't expect you to try it, so will happily spend turn 5 not setting up for him to return (in a tournament setting, when you know there isn't a turn 6). 

[santaclaws01]

(And I'm fairly happy with my opponent channeling his charge and each attach in the charge, means he doesn't have the wounds left to channel his third AP)

I believe that the point here is that he Channels once and gets the bonus to everything that happens during the Charge (so any targeting duels as well as for both attacks) at the cost of 2 Wounds

The discussion was channeling for the charge and each attack, for a total of 3 channels.

[96p]

I would really like to know how many of you ever played Levi before. In my whole time playing Levi I may have charged once or twice and now that the channel is Faqed that might go up to twice or thrice at best...

 

Ps.: that stunt with channeling thrice will not only cost you most of your hand but do nothing more then to kill one model (one without use soulstone) only to have either Levi at 2 wd or a waif in 6" to the opponents Crew. Many Masters can do much more then that at lower Cost.

Edited September 28, 2015 by 96p

[katadder]

dont think my levi has ever charged. he has been in melee but not of his own choice but charging with levi, hasnt happened for me yet.

its interesting though that he can channel a charge as thats his action, but if you charge brewie from outside his aura you still have to do drinking contest, thats almost contradictory

[Keeblerpowell]

Can someone tell me where in the FAQ this is covered? I just skimmed trough it and couldn't find it. Even searched for the word "channel". No results.

[Adran]

Outcast section (Page 15 out of 19 in the print version)

9) Q: If Leveticus uses his Channel Ability at the start of a Charge Action, will he gain the bonus for all Attacks generated during the Charge?
A: Yes. Channel is worded differently than Focus in that it specifies it applies to all duels for the remainder of the Action, so he would gain the bonus to all Attacks during the Charge, as well as any other duels, such as Horror Duels. (9/1/15)

Edited September 28, 2015 by Adran

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I just have to say. Using the argument, "I don't use it anyway, so it's not a big deal," is not much of an argument. If you don't charge with Levi that's fine. But that doesn't make the extra buff any less unnecessary on a master who already is pretty silly powerful.

To add to that, in response to the question, how often have some of us played Levi. I played Levi almost exclusively for a year. I played him through Adepticon, Gencon, and the Nova Open. I won Adepticon with Levi. And watched another stronger player win 2nd with him at the Nova. Btw, I ran my Levi verses this player at Nova and he beat me. So there's plenty of Levi data from my perspective.

Yes, I did not charge with Levi very much before the errata, only because I relied on the summoning trigger so much and his gun gets around so many things that impose a negative to a damage flips which is what I use to make sure things go dead. Yet, the same day this errata dropped, I played Levi in a local tourney and used the charging several times each game. Why? Because there are times when cover is factor, such as against Yin who makes it hard for Levi because her built in negatives and cover pretty much shut down the, at least, straight flip I rely on. But, instead, I was able to charge her an get all those bonuses to the attk + damage + Horror duel and beat her in a single punch where upon I STILL triggered to make an Abomb.

Am I to take it that the intention of Levi is just to make sure that NOTHING can defend against his attacks? Might as well just replace all his attacks with "Sacrifice enemy model after succeeded and summon an abomb."

 

(All this for a master who spent a whole EXTRA year in development) XD