Melee through a wall?

[Coweringomega]

If my leader is on one side of a wall, and my opponent is on the other, could I use my watcher  with his "View from up high" to give my leader LOS to punch through the wall to hit the opponent?

[Ludvig]

Yes.

 

In my experience such thin walls are rare but depending on the terrain your club uses it could be very powerful.

[solkan]

I'd still like a rules confirmation on this, as even though it is legal according to the rules as written It seems highly illogical.

Especially as if Ryle had shot through the wall they would get cover but gain no benefit from someone attacking them through a wall - granted this is a fantasy environment - but this seems stupid, so would like to know how the rules are intended.

 

Keep in mind that one of the Watcher's other abilities prevents enemy models from benefiting from cover within 3 called Always Watching.  The Watcher doesn't care about the logic or physics involved. So with the right positioning of the Watcher Ryle can shoot a target on the other side of a Ht10 blocking, impassible, hard cover wall with no cover benefit at all. 

Models don't benefit from cover against because the cover rules are specifically defined to only affect .  So anyone who can make melee attacks while ignoring LoS or while drawing LoS around the blocking terrain does what the mechanics state:  they make a melee attack because they have LoS the target and they have the target in range.

 

[ArcticPangolin]

I would also say that since you 'may' draw LoS from the Watcher, the Leader could choose whether or not they were engaged for the purposes of using  actions or making Disengaging Strikes. Cornercase but interesting!

[Mach_5]

If the watcher was intended to use only for shooting, it would have the  or Sh restriction or something.  Currently policy from Wyrd is not to answer these threads; if they feel it needs a clarification or errata it'll end up in the FAQ/Errata.  Personally, it doesn't seem confusing or broken to me.  It takes a fair bit to set up, and the model trying to hide just has to make sure he's got enough distance from the wall that a model using the Watcher's LoS can't get range to attack through the wall and the LoS is irrelevant.

[Coweringomega]

Yes.

 

In my experience such thin walls are rare but depending on the terrain your club uses it could be very powerful.

Awesome, thanks =)

[sharpobjects]

Just to back up Ludvig, yes your leader can perform a melee attack to the target that would normaly be blocked by the wall for LoS purposes but the Watchers Relay Information condition allows the leader to make the strike as long as the target is within the leaders melee range. 

This is all assuming the Ht of the wall is taller than the attacker and defender. Which we assumed since you needed to use the Watcher for your leader to gain LoS to the target. 

Rules for LoS are on page 40 and 41 in the big book. The watchers Relay Information throws the rules out the window. or over the wall in this case.  

 

[Coweringomega]

Just to back up Ludvig, yes your leader can perform a melee attack to the target that would normaly be blocked by the wall for LoS purposes but the Watchers Relay Information condition allows the leader to make the strike as long as the target is within the leaders melee range. 

This is all assuming the Ht of the wall is taller than the attacker and defender. Which we assumed since you needed to use the Watcher for your leader to gain LoS to the target. 

Rules for LoS are on page 40 and 41 in the big book. The watchers Relay Information throws the rules out the window. or over the wall in this case.  

 

Thank you for the clarification. 

I'm sorry for the brevity of the question, I was mid-game and was trying to keep the question short, but clear.

The situation was that a TTBrother was hiding in another room, right behind an impassible stone wall. A watcher had perfect LoS to it.  My crew was being run by Ryle. So, I surmised that if my Watcher would use "Relay Information", Ryle would be able to charge and "Punch through the wall" to hit the TTB, who was within 1" of the narrow wall. Ryle definitely had the charge range and engagement range. The question was LoS. 

I'm used to non-logical situations where Sonnia and Sam can blast things through walls, assuming that they are on fire. I've just never had a chance to apply the same mechanic to a attack before.

We both ultimately agreed that he probably could do it. I was looking for some confirmation. 

Thanks again.

[Ludvig]

Models don't benefit from cover against because the cover rules are specifically defined to only affect . 

My point exactly.
I believe the watchers abilities are intended for use with shooting, not melee, using it in this way feels like abuse of a hole in the rules hence why I said I would like a ruling, otherwise I wouldn't allow this in a tournament, or at least if it was allowed there would now be line of sight both ways as you've now punched, hacked or smashed holes in a wall.

So you are fine with Ryle's shots passing through 8" of solid terrain without leaving a way for the enemy to shoot back but he can't punch through a wall? Anyone can shoot through a house or solid ground because of watchers, the ability makes little sense from a logical standpoint.

As the host of a tournament you are of course free to rule any way you like but I would caution you to try and stick to the actual rules as much as possible. I say this because you and the tournaments you organize might end up unpopular with some players if you ignore rules and make house rules that aren't known far in advance.

As long as you give a list of house rules to people so they can prepare for it they can't complain so that might be a sollution.

[Vorschlag]

Thanks mach, I wasn't aware they don't answer threads.

Its a very specific situation but hopefully we'll see an answer in the FAQ if this was intentional.

My issue with it is based on the terrain presently produced for malifaux and the scaling we use for terrain my group builds.

It probably doesn't help that I already have players wanting destructible terrain rules.

[Ludvig]

I would also say that since you 'may' draw LoS from the Watcher, the Leader could choose whether or not they were engaged for the purposes of using  actions or making Disengaging Strikes. Cornercase but interesting!

How did you come to that conclusion? You do not have a target when checking if you are engaged so you will still be engaging/engaged by whatever model you are engaged with normally and thus be disallowed to do the attack in the first place. Additionaly you are not considered to engage the model near the watcher either since engagement is measured from yourself (and the watcher never allows you to measure the range from it, just LoS).

[Adran]

In Answer to Artic Pangolin, and Ludwig

“Relay Information: The friendly Leader model may draw LoS (but not range) from this model to its target.”

Unless the Leader is doing an action that will target the model, they are not engaged. We already know from the FAQ that yuo can disengage by just moving out of LOS, without moving out of engagement range (allows you to bypass the need for a disengagign strike). 

 

And because of that I don't think you can charge a model on the otherside of the wall (you aren't endding your charge in engagement with the model), but you could walk up to the wall and stab through it. 

 

EDIT

Good point Ludvig. Ignore me. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Adran

[Ludvig]

In Answer to Artic Pangolin, and Ludwig

“Relay Information: The friendly Leader model may draw LoS (but not range) from this model to its target.”

Unless the Leader is doing an action that will target the model, they are not engaged. We already know from the FAQ that yuo can disengage by just moving out of LOS, without moving out of engagement range (allows you to bypass the need for a disengagign strike). 

 

And because of that I don't think you can charge a model on the otherside of the wall (you aren't endding your charge in engagement with the model), but you could walk up to the wall and stab through it. 

You do not need to end a charge engaged, just "within engagement range".

The leader can draw LoS from the watcher when targeting something but before targeting you check engagement (so from the master model to another model an no target exists) and if you are engaged you are not allowed to declare a gun attack in the first place so no targeting happens.

[Vorschlag]

As the host of a tournament you are of course free to rule any way you like but I would caution you to try and stick to the actual rules as much as possible. 

Which is why I wanted a ruling on rules "as intended" instead of as written because as I have stated this feels like it is an abuse of the rules, luckily however we don't seem to have people in my area that would try to pull something like this... at least not yet.
 

[Vorschlag]

I'd still like a rules confirmation on this, as even though it is legal according to the rules as written It seems highly illogical.

Especially as if Ryle had shot through the wall they would get cover but gain no benefit from someone attacking them through a wall - granted this is a fantasy environment - but this seems stupid, so would like to know how the rules are intended.

 

Edited September 24, 2015 by Vorschlag

[Vorschlag]

Models don't benefit from cover against because the cover rules are specifically defined to only affect . 

My point exactly.
I believe the watchers abilities are intended for use with shooting, not melee, using it in this way feels like abuse of a hole in the rules hence why I said I would like a ruling, otherwise I wouldn't allow this in a tournament, or at least if it was allowed there would now be line of sight both ways as you've now punched, hacked or smashed holes in a wall.