How to deal with So'mer and Ophelia

[Omenbringer]

There are a few things that are way overboard in my opinion on Gremlins. Reckless and Dumb Luck, Dumb Luck could have been something else than a completely swap of the damage track. Maybe +3 or something. But a complete swap opens up a ridiculous Red Joker damage. 

Dont really agree with this. Neither of these abilities is free, they both force damage upon the gremlin model. Dumb Luck also requires a suit and a successful opposed duel. Even the "Ridiculous Red Joker damage" flips isn't that bad in comparison to other models (which dont also suffer damage from it) which can generate much larger amounts.

Personally I find it similar to the old arguments about the Red Joker in general, where everyone remembers the one time it showed up and totally hosed their un-wounded model but seem to forget the number of times when the Black Joker shows up and saves their model from certain death at the hands of a monster damage potential. Further compounding the issue is that most people will hoard the Black Joker in the Control Hand (and safely out of the deck), where as the Red Joker is allowed (and encouraged) to run the deck. Not much you can really do to combat the Red Joker complaints other than to just take the Jokers out of the equation completely.

[zFiend]

There are a few things that are way overboard in my opinion on Gremlins. Reckless and Dumb Luck, Dumb Luck could have been something else than a completely swap of the damage track. Maybe +3 or something. But a complete swap opens up a ridiculous Red Joker damage. 

Dont really agree with this. Neither of these abilities is free, they both force damage upon the gremlin model. Dumb Luck also requires a suit and a successful opposed duel. Even the "Ridiculous Red Joker damage" flips isn't that bad in comparison to other models (which dont also suffer damage from it) which can generate much larger amounts.

And once again, I know you know your Gremlins better than that let the fact that they do damage to you or require a suit hinder your use of them because as well as you know there are ways to mitigate this, so do I. Also the fact that even though the damage might backfire and do damage to your own models who cares? You've got tons of them, they're expendable and they are taking out models out of the price range by a long shot. So even though you lose a model, your opponent loses a lot more expensive model and don't have the models to really afford losing those models as much the Gremlins do. 

I'm not just saying this because I've played against Gremlins, I've also played Gremlins and own a fair amount of them. So I know how to speak from both sides. And my point is still the same regardless of the side I'm playing them.

Sure there are ways and counters to them and the damage to do inflict upon themselves can hurt and be used against them, but I'm not gonna sit here and be like "Yeah Pinebox is good" because it's really not the scenario on the table. Nor am I gonna sit here and say "fair enough" when you bring the fact that they damage themselves while doing it.. Because I do know Slop Haulers exists and with Slop Haulers alone I've killed Masters in this game.. And those are just the goddamn Gremlin heal bots.

Edited September 8, 2015 by zFiend

[rgarbonzo]

Guild has plenty of counters to Gremlins, someone has mentioned Austringers which can be utilized effectively. IT all comes down to player skill more than the lists you bring to the game. Be sure to be playing to the Strat and Scheme. As far as Pine Boxing things, you could always have Papa use "Hold This"  on a model and then Pine Box Papa so Hold This never goes away. That is one of the tricks that can be used in any game not just against Gremlins. AS far as Grems specifically, kill the support models, Slop HAulers are a priority target since they can heal and a lot of Gremlin players find them autoincludes. Take away the lynchpin models of your opponent.

[Myyrä]

Take away the lynchpin models of your opponent.

I prefer to take away their hope, their chances of victory and their last remaining models. In that order.

[CannibalBob]

Take away the lynchpin models of your opponent.

I prefer to take away their hope, their chances of victory and their last remaining models. In that order.

All I care about is victory.  Oh, and hooch.  And shine too.  Oh, and also piggies - I like them too....

[Omenbringer]

And once again, I know you know your Gremlins better than that let the fact that they do damage to you or require a suit hinder your use of them because as well as you know there are ways to mitigate this, so do I. Also the fact that even though the damage might backfire and do damage to your own models who cares? You've got tons of them, they're expendable and they are taking out models out of the price range by a long shot. So even though you lose a model, your opponent loses a lot more expensive model and don't have the models to really afford losing those models as much the Gremlins do. 

I'm not just saying this because I've played against Gremlins, I've also played Gremlins and own a fair amount of them. So I know how to speak from both sides. And my point is still the same regardless of the side I'm playing them.

Sure there are ways and counters to them and the damage to do inflict upon themselves can hurt and be used against them, but I'm not gonna sit here and be like "Yeah Pinebox is good" because it's really not the scenario on the table. Nor am I gonna sit here and say "fair enough" when you bring the fact that they damage themselves while doing it.. Because I do know Slop Haulers exists and with Slop Haulers alone I've killed Masters in this game.. And those are just the goddamn Gremlin heal bots.

There are a lot more potent interactions than Gremlin's with Dumb Luck or Reckless or Slop Haulers. If they were so out of whack, all you would see is Gremlin lists winning the big events. Dont get me wrong they are a good force built on synergy and restricted summoning (so they are a bit better at it, though still have some major liabilities that the other summoners dont), but they are also very fragile, encouraged to cluster (so and that cause damage tend to be more effective unless clustered around the lovely Merris), and heavily tied to activation order (and in the case of some of their abilities also the whims of fate, looking squarely at the often lamented Bayou Two Card which I dont find that great honestly). Slop Haulers are a good example of this, they provide great synergy for the crew (in the form of mass variable healing and possible Defense reduction, which is also opposable), but are typically bound to a specific activation order. Learning how the gremlin crew functions goes a very long way toward pulling its teeth. A player that can interrupt what the Gremlin player is trying to do can typically force a specific course of action. Having played all the factions and multiple Masters from each I dont find the Gremlins to be any better or worse than any other.

Similar to the Red Joker debate, the "this Master/ Crew/ Ability/ Interaction/ etc. is way broken and needs to be cuddled immediately" debate typically fails to account for the differences in player skill levels. A skilled player is going to make even the most trivial interaction seem broken in the eyes of someone that isn't as good (by this I mean as invested in the research). From what I have seen of the forum and in my communities, Gremlin's have a tendency to be piloted by fairly skilled players, while a lot of the complaints about them seem to come from newer players.

A search of the forums will show you that the Gremlin's aren't usually that high in the list of complained about Models. There are plenty of other things that are far worse than Dumb Luck (which is opposable), Reckless (which typically shuts down other options until healed due to the incurred damage), and Slop Haulers (that aren't that durable and might as well just paint a target on them selves).

As a Guild player (another of my favorite factions to play), if you are struggling against a Som'er summon factory (or any Gremlin faction model really) apply 2 Guild Austringers and focus them (not necessarily the action if you dont need the extra range) on the support. A Slop Hauler will typically die in a single turn (with luck or cheating it can even be done in a single AP if you manage a on the Attack Flip and a Severe Damage flip). Need more help, have Lucius lead the crew. Perhaps adding a Watcher or two (one for the target and one for the Austringers) to allow him to hide while still achieving LOS to targets via View From Up High. With the Secret Assets upgrade this can allow the Austringers up to 7 Unfocused Raptor attack actions, plus a Hidden Sniper attack action from Lucius, all at range 12 without requiring LOS and while keeping Lucius mobile (and likely out of sight of Som'er and his dreaded Bigger Hat than You). As a long time Som'er player, this is what I would take against my own Som'er builds.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Omenbringer
fixed emojis for blast, pulse and rams suit

[CapnBloodbeard]

 

2) Most Gremlins are Ht 1 so can often duck completely out of sight. Combined with Reckless or Drunk and Reckless means that an entire Gremlin crew can be out of sight to their opponent requiring a move to get into a position for a ranged attack. Forgot about charging with most models as there is no visible target. So, in many cases you get a single, unfocused shot which is rarely enough to kill even the lowliest Bayou Gremlin.

 

Not really.  A Ht 2 Guildie can see a Ht 1 gremlin hiding behind a Ht 1 wall.  If it was a Ht 2 wall then view is blocked even if the Gremlin is Ht 2.  So the height isn't going to matter all that much for the most part.

[trikk]

Though you might want to take a Guardian for that Df 9 Perdita just in case.

Just to clear things up. (I know its a bit of threadomancy).

 

Francisco gives Df+2

Guardian gives Defensive +2 ( to defense)

[Ludvig]

Though you might want to take a Guardian for that Df 9 Perdita just in case.

Just to clear things up. (I know its a bit of threadomancy).

 

Francisco gives Df+2

Guardian gives Defensive +2 ( to defense)

I think Boodbeard officially dug this one up by quoting from the previous discussion but the forums have been slow lately, if no one finds any old content to reopen for discussion others will need to start pointless arguments just to have something to post about  

[4thstringer]

Some theory faux  related to the models in shifting loyalties:

The Emissary's never bluff a six gun seems like a really good tool against gremlins.  

I haven't seen anyone mention Lucius on here, I feel like if they want to gun line with lots of models, the secretary may be the best counter to that, especially with riflemen firing 14 inches.   Gremlins will struggle to hit many mimics manipulative values, though activation control becomes an issue.  Lucius can drop a scheme marker at range wIth secret assets, and then use the emissary to drop candy into the midst of a bunch of bayou gremlins, tying them all up quite effectively (I've never considered using lead lined coat, but might be worth it here).  Dropping papa in their midst can blow up a large number of them in one go, even the governors proxy dropped in an inopportune place will at least force a very risky wp duel.  Changelings can help you send in a bbunch of these in the same turn if you wanted, though I'm not sure you want that.

 

 

 

 

[Ludvig]

Some theory faux  related to the models in shifting loyalties:

The Emissary's never bluff a six gun seems like a really good tool against gremlins.  

I haven't seen anyone mention Lucius on here, I feel like if they want to gun line with lots of models, the secretary may be the best counter to that, especially with riflemen firing 14 inches.   Gremlins will struggle to hit many mimics manipulative values, though activation control becomes an issue.  Lucius can drop a scheme marker at range wIth secret assets, and then use the emissary to drop candy into the midst of a bunch of bayou gremlins, tying them all up quite effectively (I've never considered using lead lined coat, but might be worth it here).  Dropping papa in their midst can blow up a large number of them in one go, even the governors proxy dropped in an inopportune place will at least force a very risky wp duel.  Changelings can help you send in a bbunch of these in the same turn if you wanted, though I'm not sure you want that.

 

Riflemen die so fast against gremlins it's not even funny and has a ranged disadvantage, you need to consider that any and every gremlin can reckless so you need to think of them as having three AP.

It's hard to get models close, you might get it to work with the emmissary unless the gremlins just use one of their automatic scheme marker discard/puts an AP into interacting. Candy is brutal against them, with you on that! Papa isn't so cool since they usually bring Merris so all the gremlins are immune to his pulses. I'd say a lot of other masters are better counters or at least other models with Lucius.

There are a few things that are way overboard in my opinion on Gremlins. Reckless and Dumb Luck, Dumb Luck could have been something else than a completely swap of the damage track. Maybe +3 or something. But a complete swap opens up a ridiculous Red Joker damage. 

Dont really agree with this. Neither of these abilities is free, they both force damage upon the gremlin model. Dumb Luck also requires a suit and a successful opposed duel. Even the "Ridiculous Red Joker damage" flips isn't that bad in comparison to other models (which dont also suffer damage from it) which can generate much larger amounts.

Personally I find it similar to the old arguments about the Red Joker in general, where everyone remembers the one time it showed up and totally hosed their un-wounded model but seem to forget the number of times when the Black Joker shows up and saves their model from certain death at the hands of a monster damage potential. Further compounding the issue is that most people will hoard the Black Joker in the Control Hand (and safely out of the deck), where as the Red Joker is allowed (and encouraged) to run the deck. Not much you can really do to combat the Red Joker complaints other than to just take the Jokers out of the equation completely.

Please show me another 3ss model with a similar damage track. The lowly bayou gremlin has the same red joker damage as Samael and other dedicated 9ss damagers since their damage track is altered instead of the fairly common + X points of damage that other models use for adding damage.That is probably why people consider it sort of unnecessarily high for a 3 pt model. If Samael got to add the +2 for burning and +1 for crit strike twice on jokers it would be much more ok to me.

Since I as an opponent can't know if you have the red joker in your hand at any given time this leads to the opponent needing to cheat every damn bayou gremlin to uncheatable damage or risk him just erasing a really expensive model. The gremlins on the other hand can just cheat from the top of the deck since the AP of a 3ss model isn't that big a deal. When we actually go into gremlin models designed for damage we have Francios that has a RJ damage of 14, I'm not sure what other 8 ss (7 + stilts) model matches that, do you know of any?

Edited December 5, 2015 by Ludvig

[admiralvorkraft]

And with So'mer or Lenny around, dumb luck is built in.

[Omenbringer]

Riflemen die so fast against gremlins it's not even funny and has a ranged disadvantage, you need to consider that any and every gremlin can reckless so you need to think of them as having three AP.

It's hard to get models close, you might get it to work with the emmissary unless the gremlins just use one of their automatic scheme marker discard/puts an AP into interacting. Candy is brutal against them, with you on that! Papa isn't so cool since they usually bring Merris so all the gremlins are immune to his pulses. I'd say a lot of other masters are better counters or at least other models with Lucius.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Please show me another 3ss model with a similar damage track. The lowly bayou gremlin has the same red joker damage as Samael and other dedicated 9ss damagers since their damage track is altered instead of the fairly common + X points of damage that other models use for adding damage.That is probably why people consider it sort of unnecessarily high for a 3 pt model. If Samael got to add the +2 for burning and +1 for crit strike twice on jokers it would be much more ok to me.

Since I as an opponent can't know if you have the red joker in your hand at any given time this leads to the opponent needing to cheat every damn bayou gremlin to uncheatable damage or risk him just erasing a really expensive model. The gremlins on the other hand can just cheat from the top of the deck since the AP of a 3ss model isn't that big a deal. When we actually go into gremlin models designed for damage we have Francios that has a RJ damage of 14, I'm not sure what other 8 ss (7 + stilts) model matches that, do you know of any?

Couple of things;

Merris doesn't make all Gremlins immune to Blasts, just the ones in her small Aura. If she is protecting a huddle, then kill her (Austringers do it in two Moderate Damage Flips) to more than likely remove the entire huddle thanks to Immolating Demise 4.

Bayou Gremlins that use Reckless to move up field and engage quickly will also be at 2 Wounds, if they use Dumb Luck as well they will more than likely be dead. Sure they have high Red Joker damage when they trigger Dumb Luck but that is one card in the deck. Also consider that the Bayou Gremlins have a fairly low Sh value, they will most likely be flipping at a deficit on the attack, likely also meaning a negative on the damage flip (unless using Encouragement causing them more Wounds), so no cheating in high damage cards. Comparing their Red Joker damage against Samael's damage track is not really relevant in that he has a Severe that ties their Red Joker (without Dumb Luck), beats it by 1 if the model also happens to be Burning, doesn't cause him damage to use, or require the Red Joker to get to that potential. Samael is also much more likely to inflict his damage consistently due to his higher Sh value and access to Use Soul Stones.

For a Bayou Gremlin to be as effective as you are making out, turn after turn requires Lenny or cards from Som'er's hand for Do It Like Dis! and a Slop Hauler for healing, none of which (aside from Som'er) is free for the crew. It will also likely require Som'er to deplete the control hands and rebuild his own (via Dead Gremlins), along with providing access to the Encouragement upgrade.

They are good for a 3 SS model but no other models outside of the faction suffer as much to do what they do or requires as much support to do it consistently. I would consider the Guild Austringers much better.

As for Bayou Two Card, well some times it pays off and other times it truffles up a worse card, either way it is the models Cheat so cant be changed. Players tend to remember the "perfect storms" more than the normal results. My experience is that Bayou Two Card is highly over rated in most instances.

I haven't seen anyone mention Lucius on here, I feel like if they want to gun line with lots of models,

I actually mentioned him earlier as a remedy and pretty hard counter to Gremlin Gun Lines.

 

Edited December 6, 2015 by Omenbringer

[Ludvig]

I'm not saying gremlins are overpowered but activating a ton of models is an effective way to depelete the enemy hand. I realize the joker itself doesn't come up often but if you do 10+ shots with bayou gremlins near Lenny and a single one of those come up cheatable I could be looking at 9ss worth of damage.

Bayou two card wouldn't be as good on a more expensive model, it's that it has no cost that makes it good for a cheap model. If we both have hands and you miss you might then hit after I chose not to cheat and it will not cost you anything to try. If I don't have a decent hand like 7 is my highest card then bayou two card gets really good. If one of my 3-5ss minions misses and I have a crap hand I can do nothing about it and even with a good hand it might not be worth it to cheat.

I wasn't really out to make this a gremlin bashing thread in that sense, I will try to be more constructive.

I would love to hear about the Lucius lists that beat the gremlin gunline. What was in them and what strats and schemes were you playing?

[EnternalVoid]

Bayou two card wouldn't be as good on a more expensive model, it's that it has no cost that makes it good for a cheap model. If we both have hands and you miss you might then hit after I chose not to cheat and it will not cost you anything to try. If I don't have a decent hand like 7 is my highest card then bayou two card gets really good. If one of my 3-5ss minions misses and I have a crap hand I can do nothing about it and even with a good hand it might not be worth it to cheat.

One piece of this struck me as odd so I thought I would ask for clarification.  How does this work?  If you both have hands, Gremlin shoots you and after the initial flip is missing, and you choice not to cheat, doesn't that mean he missed because he skipped his chance to cheat?  Bayou Two Card has to be used when it is their turn to cheat, meaning if from the initial attack they are missing they have to Bayou Two Card first and then you have your choice to cheat.  They do not know if you are going to chose not to cheat *and in your post you said you both had hands* as they have to use their ability first in this case.

Now don't get me wrong, if the gremlin is initially losing the duel, he rarely has a reason not to Bayou Two Card to see if it will help him hit, there are only a few times you would not do it and those don't come up a ton.  Bayou Two Card is a great ability that is luckily stuck generally on stuff with poorer stats and not a ton of Gremlins even have the ability.  I have faced the horde with Somer before, it can be rough.

[Omenbringer]

One piece of this struck me as odd so I thought I would ask for clarification.  How does this work?  If you both have hands, Gremlin shoots you and after the initial flip is missing, and you choice not to cheat, doesn't that mean he missed because he skipped his chance to cheat?  Bayou Two Card has to be used when it is their turn to cheat, meaning if from the initial attack they are missing they have to Bayou Two Card first and then you have your choice to cheat.  They do not know if you are going to chose not to cheat *and in your post you said you both had hands* as they have to use their ability first in this case.

Now don't get me wrong, if the gremlin is initially losing the duel, he rarely has a reason not to Bayou Two Card to see if it will help him hit, there are only a few times you would not do it and those don't come up a ton.  Bayou Two Card is a great ability that is luckily stuck generally on stuff with poorer stats and not a ton of Gremlins even have the ability.  I have faced the horde with Somer before, it can be rough.

As you point out, the key to all this is they have to be able to "Cheat" in order to use Bayou Two Card at all. Given their low Sh that is not likely (especially against the more elite models with higher Df) unless they have a way to get to a neutral damage flip.

Bayou Two Card is one of those abilities that lends it self very well to what I term the Perfect Storm, when the lowly Bayou Gremlin succeeds well enough to garner a cheatable Damage flip on some big burly tank model, while also having the required trigger Suit, and cheats the Red Joker in, while also flipping another Severe damage card, resulting in a one shot (or near one shot) of said (typically lynch pin) model. It is similar to the other gremlin gun line "tactic" of maxing the negatives on the damage flip in the attempt to ferret out the Red Joker. When it works it is memorable, the other 99 times when it results in only 1 damage it is easily forgotten.

Perhaps it is just my experiences but Bayou Two Card has never really been that worthwhile an option for the Offensive actions of Bayou Grmelins (now Som'er on the other hand...), most times the odds are against you for improving duel standing. On Defense it is much better.

I would love to hear about the Lucius lists that beat the gremlin gunline. What was in them and what strats and schemes were you playing?

This is the exact list I would take against my own Gremlin Gun Lines led by Som'er and benefiting from Encouragement;

Guild - 50ss Crew

Lucius -- 7SS Cache
+Secret Assets - 2ss

 

• Captain Dashel - 9ss
• Guild Austringer - 6ss
• Guild Austringer - 6ss
• Guild Rifleman - 5ss
• Guild Rifleman - 5ss
• Guild Rifleman - 5ss
• Watcher - 4ss
• Watcher - 4ss

Lucius, the Watchers, and the Austringers form the real core of the crew and provide plenty of LOS ignoring, range 12+ strikes (up to 7 per turn). I include the Guild Riflemen to provide some retaliation and deterrent for Charging Piglets that might try to harass the crew. Dashel is there to provide access to 0 AP Focus actions for the Riflemen and a for their SH actions. With the Watchers guarantying LOS for Lucius to the Austringers and/or the target, he can be mobile while still aiding in the Gremlin reduction program via Commanding Presence. The Austringers Distract trigger can also offset Som'er's Bigger Hat than You, Survival of the Fittest tactic by depleting his Control Hand after he works to build it back up.

The only thing I might add is the Dampening Field upgrade to Lucius or Dashel to provide some pretty hard counters to the typical Gremlin strengths of Healing and Support auras. I might also drop the Guild Riflemen for something else, say a Neverborn Doppelganger (for another 2-3 Raptor Strikes per turn), Abuela Ortega (Charge protection and another Raptor Strike per turn), or perhaps a pair of Freikorps Trappers (to harass the Gunline form turn 1), or Hans (if I want to try and strip upgrades from Som'er), if the mood suits me.

Even an amped up Summon Factory is going to struggle against this much pressure being applied consistently.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Omenbringer

[Ludvig]

I count 2 attacks ignoring LoS - 1 focused strike from each austringer and Lucius can't ignore LoS without scheme markers close to the enemy. The watchers need to move up and then do a (2) so they need to be far up and unmolested do help him. I don't see how that list can get any schemes done or make a serious attempt at most strategies. Killing a bayou gremlin or two per turn gets me nothin if I can't score any points. The only models fast enough for most schemes are the watchers and they get taken out fast when they are the only models capablr of scheming.

Austringers are good but if you want to kill with them they need to focus since their track is 1/3/4. If no one has a control hand, the gremlins still have their two-card and so have the upper hand. 

A cunning counter to this list would be Gracie moving up turn 1 after the entire guild crew is done activating and then reactivating to engage 2-3 models in the firebase, simultaneously neutering the offence as well as having a good shot at erasing models turn 2. She could also be bringing another solid beater/tough model to engage the other half of the crew. The rest of the gremlin crew can move up (without going reckless or with slop healing) to be in a position where they can get strategy points t2. 

The problem is that you aren't putting much pressure on the summoner himself since he should be able to hide easily behind something, giving only one or two austringers able to hurt him. The austringers are easily taken out by the summoners long range threat model or they are forced so far back that they don't affect the game enough. 

I definitely see dropping the riflemen for something else, the doppleganger would bring some more scheming and can survive decently against shooting if it sticks to cover and does it's (0) for negatives to the enemy.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Ludvig

[Omenbringer]

I count 2 attacks ignoring LoS - 1 focused strike from each austringer and Lucius can't ignore LoS without scheme markers close to the enemy. The watchers need to move up and then do a (2) so they need to be far up and unmolested do help him. I don't see how that list can get any schemes done or make a serious attempt at most strategies. Killing a bayou gremlin or two per turn gets me nothin if I can't score any points. The only models fast enough for most schemes are the watchers and they get taken out fast when they are the only models capablr of scheming.

Austringers are good but if you want to kill with them they need to focus since their track is 1/3/4. If no one has a control hand, the gremlins still have their two-card and so have the upper hand. 

A cunning counter to this list would be Gracie moving up turn 1 after the entire guild crew is done activating and then reactivating to engage 2-3 models in the firebase, simultaneously neutering the offence as well as having a good shot at erasing models turn 2. She could also be bringing another solid beater/tough model to engage the other half of the crew. The rest of the gremlin crew can move up (without going reckless or with slop healing) to be in a position where they can get strategy points t2. 

The problem is that you aren't putting much pressure on the summoner himself since he should be able to hide easily behind something, giving only one or two austringers able to hurt him. The austringers are easily taken out by the summoners long range threat model or they are forced so far back that they don't affect the game enough. 

I definitely see dropping the riflemen for something else, the doppleganger would bring some more scheming and can survive decently against shooting if it sticks to cover and does it's (0) for negatives to the enemy.

You seem to already have made your mind up that the Gremlin Gun Line is unbeatable so further discussion is likely futile, however...

You dont need or have to focus the Austringers every turn, only if you want to go the full 18" on the Raptor strikes (say to strike at the Slop Haulers that keep everything functioning at peak efficiency). 12" that doesn't care about LOS is plenty far and plenty useful on a standard Malifaux table (with the recommended amount of terrain), especially when coupled with front loading the deployment zone. With the Austringers higher SH the Bayou Gremlin's are flipping at a 2 point deficit, and when benefiting from Captain Dashel's "Fire!" will also be facing a on the Attack flip (this is why you don't always want to focus Austringers). Even considering the Bayou Gremlin's Bayou Two Card ability, they are still at a significant deficit in the Duel. This is even more so if Lucius has a Control Hand. Denying him that requires Som'er to activate before him, be within 18" of Lucius, and have LOS, and win the opposed Duel on a model that has a 1 point lead on the resist, and the same abilities as Som'er for cheating and Soulstone Use, as well as being able to also discard a Control Card to force a on the Attack flip which Bigger Hat Than You is.

As for how I am getting up to 7 Raptor strikes per turn, Lucius and a Watcher are the key. One of the Watchers camps where it can see the Austringers (no reason for this one to have to move from initial deployment position). It then just uses View From Up High turn after turn, allowing Lucius to see the Austringers regardless of where he is on the actual table. From then on he can just stroll around the board (staying within 18" of the Austringers) with Walk Actions triggering Commanding Presence up to 3 times per activation (a Guard Sergeant is a worthwhile addition to the crew to add a to the Horror duel) and allowing another 3 Raptor Strikes at a range 12 from the Austringers who can make 2 Raptor Strikes a piece and dont require LOS to the target.

You are correct about Lucius' Hidden Sniper needing LOS unless the target is also within range of a Scheme marker, however, that is there more to punish the Gremlin Scheme runners (who are likely to be within range of a Scheme marker to trigger the no- LOS) than really do the heavy lifting. It is nice that it is also a 0 action as well, so he can stroll about the board with 3 Walks, potentially triggering Commanding Presence with each, to get a good view of a target to use Hidden Sniper.

The crew does have potential for Scheme running, though it is more of a later game sprint than full game marathon. It is also designed to severely limit the scheme running of your opponents crew by denying the middle zone of the table, where most schemes tend to focus. Also consider that points can be rearranged to allow Lucius to attach the Legalise upgrade (for reassignment of clustered Scheme markers) and scheme runners, the core of Lucius (free) plus 2 Austringers (12 SS) plus Dashel (9 SS) plus Watcher (4 SS) is the real key to it functioning, leaving 25 SS for other toys to aid the core (Say alarge  pack of 3 SS Guild Hounds).

Engaging the core to shut down the shooting is much more difficult than you make out. First, Lucius remains very mobile throughout. Second, the Austringers can always use Quick Retreat to disengage (without the need for cards) and still perform a raptor strike once per turn. Deliver Orders is another option for Disengaging while also allowing a Scheme marker to be dropped. Lucius could also potentially remove the Austringer from Engagement by using What Lackeys are For to drop a Scheme Marker upfield and replace the engaged Austringer.

Your example of Gracie moving up field to engage turn 1 has some merit, but consider that it will require her to activate late (after the Austringers) as well as Reactivate (incuring damage) to get to them that quickly. If Gracie doesn't activate late (after the Austringers) the reacitvate will leave her alone and afraid within range of the Austringer's for at least an activation. Gracie also only has an engagement presence of 4", meaning separating the Austringers by 5" leaves one of them un-engaged. You also seem to depend upon out activation for Gracie to do her thing, that is not guarantied when facing this list, since the Lucius crew can target un-activated models first and isn't at a huge model deficit. Lastly, remember those Guild Riflemen you are so down on? Well they can further punish Gracie for coming to engage the crew via Stand and Fire (if they are Focused, considerably likely given Gracie's need to go after the Austringers), leaving Gracie with as little as 3 wounds (2 from Reactivate, 3 from Stand and Fire damage) to survive away from a Slop Hauler (and also likely away from those Suit granting Auras the Gremlins can provide). Gracie is good but she is also a 10 point investment that is fairly certain to not offer a good return on investment in this situation.

Pressuring Som'er's summoning is facilitated by killing his Bayou Gremlins (and if you kill them all then he cant summon anything but Piglets, and that requires him to hit a trigger on a melee strike and kill the target model); forcing him to focus on replacing losses and removing his activation options. If the Austringers kill the Slop Hauler early, then Som'er will not be able to replace losses as fast as the Lucius core can remove them or really keep the factory functioning. The summon factory requires a lot of effort and resources to perform consistently and typically nets only 1-2 Bayou Gremlins per turn. The Lucius core has some great tools to deny those resources and gum up the works.

I am not sure why you are so down on Guild Riflemen, they aren't that bad really. They can deliver some impressive damage in this list. I definitely wouldn't recommend clustering them closer than 3" from a Guard model though.

Keep in mind all of this is not just theory, Som'er is my main crew with Lucius being a frequent diversion from the Gremlin's (both of them have been for years). I have played with and against these lists many times.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Omenbringer
Formatting

[Ryin]

How are you getting three extra commanding presence raptor strikes with only two austringers?

[Omenbringer]

How are you getting three extra commanding presence raptor strikes with only two austringers?

Commanding Presence isn't limited to once per model, or activation, or turn unless it was Errata'ed somewhere. It is an always on Passive Ability of Lucius that can be used any time he completes a Walk action. He could generate 3 extra Raptor Strikes by Walking and using Commanding Presence three times, even if there was only one Austringer on the table (within 18" and LOS).

Edited December 7, 2015 by Omenbringer
clarrification.

[Ryin]

The reason it's once per model is that because once a model passes that horror duel, it becomes immune to horror duels generated by the same source for the rest of the turn and doesn't have anything to do with commanding presence's wording but rather something built into the normal rules of the game- how horror duels work.

Since the model is now immune from the source, it can't take the horror duel to pass it and thus can't benefit from commanding presence a second time.

Is that not correct? (I don't have either rulebook on hand atm)

 

Just to sort of remain on topic, the commanding presence  on austringers is a very dangerous game. With how card intensive Lucius already is, even with a to the duel, I don't think it would be unusual to have at least one paralyzed austringer a turn or every other turn without ditching your hand,

As far as Lucius goes, I would be more inclined to use dops, changelings and Envy as opposed to rifelman to take out bayous. Lure in the models you want to kill with a beckoner and you can probably kill with a changeling. One changeling, one dop and envy is potentially 8 shots a turn at to the attack with one of those guaranteed to be focused and a moderate dmg of five. The range is still 12, but a lure is 18 inches if you bring a beckoner. I don't know if you're looking for purely guild solutions or not, but the list can be taken in the guild.

As with anything, positioning and terrain are probably your best friend more than anything else.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Ryin

[Omenbringer]

I see your thinking (good catch btw) however I think this one is a bit vague and debatable. Regardless 1 less Raptor strike per turn isn't enough to really discourage the efficacy of the crew build or strategy in combating the Gremlin Gun Line.

[Ludvig]

I see your thinking (good catch btw) however I think this one is a bit vague and debatable. Regardless 1 less Raptor strike per turn isn't enough to really discourage the efficacy of the crew build or strategy in combating the Gremlin Gun Line.

Nothing vague about that, you are immune to Lucius' horrors duels for the rest of the turn after you pass one. 

Dashels aura also requires the model to have LoS to your target to take effect so if you are shooting models you can't see it isn't helping. Austringers without focus do 1 damage on their weak which isn't that great.

Gracie doesn't need to charge, she just engages a huge chunk of you firebase turn 1 by walking. The killing starts turn 2.

I don't think gremlin gunlines are unbeatable, I just don't see Lucius as the answer to them.

[Ludvig]

I do like hunters with Lucius. You also need a model with pushes or a death marshal to disengage your gunline, Graves or Queeg for example.

[Ryin]

I was thinking about that as well. It helps deal with the out activating a bit. The idea with anything is to get them to play your game rather than to play theirs. By even thinking bout "how do I counter this" you're already on the defensive. Hunters make someone who has the activation advantage take a moment to have to think more about how and what they activate.

Pathfinders in a good position might not be a bad idea either.