Inspiring to defend

[Hawkman67609er]

So in malifaux land does the word "action" mean friendly action only? Silly real world English language is screwing me up here but the wording on the "inspire" condition Lady Justice hands out reads "this model gains +flip to Ml and Sh actions" which means enemy Ml and Sh actions too. So yay +flip to defense flips!!!

Page 37 steps to resolving an action

1. Declare Action & Spend AP
2. Perform DUELS
3. Resolve Results

Page 32 step 2 of opposed DUELs

Both models simultaneously flip one card (plus any
cards for Fate Modifiers)

So a friend and I found out the exact ruling and come to a consensus.

Alright so the consensus came and the actual ruling on Lady Justice Inspire according to the rules actually means "this mode gains +flip to the attack flip of its Ml and Sh actions." because of the following listed below.

The defense flip of a model is just an opposed duel, not part of the acting attacking model's action so no +Df flip.

The damage flip would gain +flip if page 47 didnt say "Effects that modify the
damage flip will state that they do so specifically." so since this ability does no state damage flips specifically no +damage flip

Edited September 4, 2015 by Hawkman67609er
Found out the ruling.

[Philosfr]

The defending model is not taking a Ml or Sh action. The defending model is not even taking an action, they are simply defending against someone else's action. Since they are not taking a Ml, Sh or any other action, they don't get the positive twist.

That's one reason why it says "this model". "This model" is not taking the action, so there is no positive twist.

[Dirial]

So, lets walk through how an action is performed:

One model declares an action. Whether it's e.g. a Ml action is determined by the stat it adds to its flip. Lets say for the sake of argument that its a Ml action that is resisted by Df. Then it declares a target, e.g. an enemy. Thus, "This model" would take "a Ml action". How do you come from that to the enemy model performing an action? Even if it was, it would be a Df action.

How would you  interpret "this model gains +flip to all enemy attack actions"? 

"This model gains +flip to all friendly enemy attack actions"? Haha

Both of those would make no sense at all. To get a from that wording, you would have to declare an action.

[santaclaws01]

Df and Wp flips are duels required by the Action just like the attack flip

They are not part of the action. End of. Period. There is no wiggle room on this. 

[asrian]

So in malifaux land does the word "action" mean friendly action only? Silly real world English language is screwing me up here but the wording on the "inspire" condition Lady Justice hands out reads "this model gains +flip to Ml and Sh actions" which means enemy Ml and Sh actions too. So yay +flip to defense flips!!!

not quite. Say she inspires someone. They ml/sh someone else. Your model is taking a ml/sh so gains a +, the enemy is making a df/wp flip (whicher is applicable to the attack). The opponent then retaliates and attacks back. The ml/sh at your model who makes a df/wp flip. That flip is NOT at a + from Inspire as it is not a sh/ml flip for you, its a df/wp flip.

[AverageBoss]

The ability reads:
When this model (Lady Justice) kills an enemy model with a ML action, all friendly minion models (models friendly to Lady Justice since its her ability) within 8 gain the following condition until the end of the turn: "Inspired: This model (those friendly models to Lady Justice within 8 as pointed out above) gains + to ML and SH actions."

I added the underlined parts for emphasis.

Edited September 3, 2015 by AverageBoss

[Dirial]

But it doesn't say to Ml or Sh actions that only they are attempting it says all actions, enemy and friendly alike.

Well, yes, it doesn't say so, because is doesn't need to. A model never performs enemy actions.

[Dirial]

Defense flip is just as much part of the Ml or Sh action as the attack flip! Don't be prejudice against defense flips! They save your model's lives!

I don't get you. As the Inspired model doesn't perform a Ml or Sh action, why would it get a ?

[Hawkman67609er]

Defense flip is just as much part of the Ml or Sh action as the attack flip! Don't be prejudice against defense flips! They save your model's lives!

I don't get you. As the Inspired model doesn't perform a Ml or Sh action, why would it get a ?

it doesn't say actions this model executes, just actions. It's literally saying "this model gets +flip to enemy Ml and Sh actions" how would you interpret that?

[santaclaws01]

The inspired model is not performing an Ml or Sh action when defending against one. They are making an opposed DF/Wp duel *against* the enemy Ml or Sh action. They do not benefit from any modifiers that would affect their own Ml or Sh actions, because they are not making a Ml or Sh action.

[santaclaws01]

it doesn't say actions this model executes, just actions. It's literally saying "this model gets +flip to enemy Ml and Sh actions" how would you interpret that?

No, it is not literally saying that. It says the model gets a  to Ml and Sh actions. Df and Wp duels are not Ml or Sh actions. They are not part of Ml or Sh actions. Therefore, they do not benefit from the Inspired condition.

[AverageBoss]

First, you don't need to make every sentence a new post. There is an edit button if you want to add to a previous post.
 

I posted the exact rule above. The only time the rule mentions anything about enemy models is in the stipulation that Lady Justice must kill an enemy model with a ML action for the ability to trigger.

[Hawkman67609er]

So in malifaux land does the word "action" mean friendly action only? Silly real world English language is screwing me up here but the wording on the "inspire" condition Lady Justice hands out reads "this model gains +flip to Ml and Sh actions" which means enemy Ml and Sh actions too. So yay +flip to defense flips!!!

not quite. Say she inspires someone. They ml/sh someone else. Your model is taking a ml/sh so gains a +, the enemy is making a df/wp flip (whicher is applicable to the attack). The opponent then retaliates and attacks back. The ml/sh at your model who makes a df/wp flip. That flip is NOT at a + from Inspire as it is not a sh/ml flip for you, its a df/wp flip.

Df and Wp flips are duels required by the Action just like the attack flip

[Sklertic]

It's very specific and worded clearly. Sh, ca and ml actions are attack actions. When you or the enemy performs such an action, the defending model either performs a df or wp action to protect itself from the attack.

This doesn't need a faq or anything, as it's not an issue with the rules, but your interpretations of them, which I think is due to your misconceptions about the mechanics of actions and modifiers.

You are wrong, sir.

[Hawkman67609er]

Df and Wp flips are duels required by the Action just like the attack flip

They are not part of the action. End of. Period. There is no wiggle room on this. 

The rules state otherwise duels are required by the action. Defense or attack.

[Hawkman67609er]

There is no seperate "defense action" it's still a Ml or Sh action.

[Sackville]

If someone can show me somewhere in the FAQ & Errata or the rules somewhere to prove me wrong I will give you a cyber kiss.

Page 32, Opposed Duels, paragraph 2. "In an opposed duel there is an Attacking model (the model that is acting) and a Defending model (the model that is targeted by the Attack Action).

The rules clearly state that only the attacker is acting, so only the attacker gains any benefit from a positive flip to actions.

EDIT: Even though a Ml or Sh action causes both the attacking and defending models to flip, the bonus from Inspiried will only ever be relevant for an attacking model since the defending model cannot claim a +flip to actions when it's not acting.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Sackville

[santaclaws01]

Yes they are all duels are required by the action in the rules check the rules

Model A declares an Attack Action against Model B. Model B resists the action with the stat that Model A's Attack Action is against. The act of resisting the action IS NOT PART OF THE ACTION. 

If you want to continue to insist that opposed duels against the action are part of said action, cite the passage in the rule that states this.

[santaclaws01]

nobody has FAQ or errata or rules on this huh? innnteresting

here page 37 of the malifaux 2e full rulebook

"1. Declare Action & Spend AP
2. Perform Duels (defense or attack flips)
3. Resolve Results"

You have referenced the order of what happens after an action is declared. That does not say what is part of an action.


At this point I'm doubting my ability to remain civil and am ending my part in this discussion.

[Hawkman67609er]

If someone can show me somewhere in the FAQ & Errata or the rules somewhere to prove me wrong I will give you a cyber kiss.

Page 32, Opposed Duels, paragraph 2. "In an opposed duel there is an Attacking model (the model that is acting) and a Defending model (the model that is targeted by the Attack Action).

The rules clearly state that only the attacker is acting, so only the attacker gains any benefit from a positive flip to actions. I will pass on the kiss.

Why do you need to be the acting model to get a +flip?

Page 37 3 steps to resolving an action

1. Declare Action & Spend AP
2. Perform Duels
3. Resolve Results

Page 32 opposed duel

step 2 both models flip one card and add fate modifiers

[Hawkman67609er]

It's very specific and worded clearly. Sh, ca and ml actions are attack actions. When you or the enemy performs such an action, the defending model either performs a df or wp action to protect itself from the attack.

This doesn't need a faq or anything, as it's not an issue with the rules, but your interpretations of them, which I think is due to your misconceptions about the mechanics of actions and modifiers.

You are wrong, sir.

there is no defense or willpoer action in this game, only attack actions, the defense flip is part of the action

[Sklertic]

Fine. You pervert the game to suit your needs, so have fun having this argument every time you play Lady Justice from now on. I'm going to stop helping you, as you seem out of reach, and I don't have the temperament to stay cool. 

Good luck.

[Hawkman67609er]

So in malifaux land does the word "action" mean friendly action only? Silly real world English language is screwing me up here but the wording on the "inspire" condition Lady Justice hands out reads "this model gains +flip to Ml and Sh actions" which means enemy Ml and Sh actions too. So yay +flip to defense flips!!!

Page 37 of Malifaux 2e full rulebook Steps in resolving an action

1. Declare Action & Spend AP
2. Perform Duels
3. Resolve Results

Page 33 step 2 of opposed duel

Both models simultaneously flip one card (plus any
cards for Fate Modifiers)

[Sackville]

The rules clearly state that only the attacker is acting, so only the attacker gains any benefit from a positive flip to actions. I will pass on the kiss.

Why do you need to be the acting model to get a +flip?

You need to be the acting model to get a +flip from Inspired because the +flip is to actions.

Inspires says "This model gets  to Ml and Sh actions", not "This model gets  during  Ml and Sh actions" or "This model gets  to Ml and Sh duels".

What it comes down to is that you add modifiers to actions when you are acting, and a defending model is not acting. If you want to consider that as a peculiarity of either "action" or "to" in Malifaux Rules English you're certainly welcome to, but it's still how the rules work and is about as straightforward as it can reasonably be.

[Hawkman67609er]

First, you don't need to make every sentence a new post. There is an edit button if you want to add to a previous post.
 

I posted the exact rule above. The only time the rule mentions anything about enemy models is in the stipulation that Lady Justice must kill an enemy model with a ML action for the ability to trigger.

I KNOW RIGHT haha >D hey Im new to this forum so ill clean it up in my next one if i find something as interesting to talk about

[Hawkman67609er]

You need to be the acting model to get a +flip from Inspired because the +flip is to actions.

Inspires says "This model gets  to Ml and Sh actions", not "This model gets  during  Ml and Sh actions" or "This model gets  to Ml and Sh duels".

What it comes down to is that you add modifiers to actions when you are acting, and a defending model is not acting. If you want to consider that as a peculiarity of either "action" or "to" in Malifaux Rules English you're certainly welcome to, but it's still how the rules work and is about as straightforward as it can reasonably be.

can you tell me the page it says no fate modfiers to the defending model? and isnt that what defensive stance is?

becasue on page 32 it says "Both models simultaneously flip one card (plus any
cards for Fate Modifiers)"