All the things you want to soapbox and/or have debate about in Malifaux

[Philosfr]

My favorite part about Malifaux is that everything seems overpowered and therefore it balances. I've now played about 60% of the masters in M2E, but each time I pick up a new one to play, I have to re-read the card about three times because "that is way too good, there's no way it can work that way". Yet invariably, it does work that way, and it's balanced because the opponents crew can do equally ridiculous things.

 

That's the impressive part about Malifaux's balance. I've played games where they managed to achieve balance, but did it by making everyone the same (I'm looking at you D&D 5E). I really dislike playing those games. There's no draw to playing all the different masters and factions out there if they all play the same.

 

One more comment about balance... most of Malifaux's "crazy overpowered abilities that just are too good to be true" can still be countered by a thoughtful opponent that didn't know they were coming. That's not the best way to phrase that, but I hope it translates correctly. There are games where you pretty much can't win if the opponent is playing with things you're unfamiliar with. Suddenly they'll activate ability XYZ in conjunction with model ABC to cause DEF and then alphabet soup happens and you lose the game. I've never really felt that way in Malifaux. I can play against crews that I've never played against and have a chance at winning. Sure, I probably would do better if I knew what my opponents crew did, but I won't automatically lose just because I didn't. I think that's important for balance.

[Myyrä]

I have noticed this as well.

 

I think we may need to change up how the beta is done in the future.

I'm not at all sure this has anything to do with the way betas are handled. Practically all games I have come in contact with have people complaining about the balance and suggesting their own improvements. It doesn't even matter how well balanced the game already is. All it takes to start a thread like that is one player who has lost to a single opponent too many times. I believe there was a thread about Lady Justice being too powerful.

As for people inventing their own rules for the Dark Carnival, it happens all the time with role playing and miniature games. It's just a thing a some people enjoy doing. They like to invent their own models with their own rules. I personally have absolutely zero interest in those unofficial forum projects, but I don't think they are hurting anyone. (I don't think they are doing anything useful either.)

The fact that the Dark Carnival project somewhat imitates the structure of the open betas could also be perceived as a compliment. People think that that is good way of testing and honing the rules for models and that's why the imitate it.

All that being said, if you really feel like you need to change the way betas work, go for it. All I'm trying to argue is that the activity on these forums doesn't seem to me like it demands such a change.

[Math Mathonwy]

I have never been on a minis game forum where there wasn't a lot of talk about how to fix a given model. This behaviour seems completely ubiquitous and I'm very surprised that here it is somehow being pinned on there having been an open beta.

Wyrd has also fixed lots of models. Samurai, Karina, Nothing Beast, TT Archers, Oiran - all got powerful Upgrades (many of them zero-cost!). And all of those Upgrades were needed and the game got better since they were introduced. Malifaux 2nd introduced the idea of Upgrades and I think that they are perfect for this sort of thing. Much less invasive than outright errata. And Wyrd has used this powerful tool and hopefully will use it in the future as well.

Finally, if you have 49 Masters in a game this complex, it would be an utter miracle if all of them were equal in power. One has to be the "worst". Now, personally I don't think that it is Yan Lo but still, that sentiment is hardly going to go away by not doing open betas.

Edit: *shakes fist* damn you, Myyrä, I'll get you some day!

[rgarbonzo]

:drags out soapbox:

Okay here is one thing that really just pisses me off, the fact that some come into the system and because they cannot beat a player of a specific faction that faction must be broken. The main victim of factionism are the Gremlins, every time I see anyone complain about Gremlins usually in less than 10 posts someone else chimes in on how they weren't tested to the same standard as other factions. This, to me specifically, is a major slap in the face as I participated in both open and closed for Wave 1 and 2, in wave 1 I tested Brewmaster as much as I could even though I hated the crew. Wave 2 saw me testing the rest of the Gremlin models and trying to break them. Feedback was given and Justin had his say about it. Hell I even campaigned for a damn master change! So to me specifically, anytime someone who wasn't in the betas comes on and says well Gremlins just weren't tested, it drives me bonkers, like I literally gnash me teeth and refrain from responding because of the reason I listed above. I didn't do all the work myself either, LemonConstruct and Balefirestorm are 2 others who helped test Gremlins, hell even Razhem had a hand in shaping Ulix thanks to a game against Marcus. Stop trying to feed a narrative that is false, everything was tested to the best of the abilities of the players (and if Justin had a specific request he usually gave us a prod in that direction). Oh and the not a real faction jokes aren't funny, they were for a minute but their time has expired.

:steps off soapbox: 

Kay, done for now.   

[Myyrä]

Oh and the not a real faction jokes aren't funny, they were for a minute but their time has expired.

They are a little funny though.

[moxypoo]

:drags out soapbox:

Okay here is one thing that really just pisses me off, the fact that some come into the system and because they cannot beat a player of a specific faction that faction must be broken.

 

Agreed. People are very quick to yell "OP!" instead of considering the possibility that their own poor play caused them to lose a game.  Not to say that Malifaux is perfectly balanced (After playing with Illuminated a few times now, I think they should cost 8SS for example), but I haven't come across anything that strikes me as broken (think Skullclamp in MTG).  Overall, the balance is excellent.

[Math Mathonwy]

The main victim of factionism are the Gremlins, every time I see anyone complain about Gremlins usually in less than 10 posts someone else chimes in on how they weren't tested to the same standard as other factions.

It's especially funny considering how much testing Levi got (two betas worth!) and he is usually considered as the most powerful Master in the game. And Colette and Dreamer were also tested a lot and they are also seen as being at the very top of the power curve.

Oh and the not a real faction jokes aren't funny, they were for a minute but their time has expired.

They are somewhat passé, aren't they.

[zFiend]

They are a little funny though.

 

Kinda like what she said jokes. They never grow old. 

[rgarbonzo]

Kinda like what she said jokes.

That's what he said

[Da Git]

OK...so that was a swing and a miss, I apologize. But to be fair, I originally planned to go with: "Naah! It thinks it's people.".

 

And just to be really, really, really clear, my original post was a stab at the old joke that married men have no money, only the money given to them by their wives.

 

So... yeah... moving along now.

You should come to Japan, that literally happens here. The (usually

) wife controls all the money and gives her husband an allowance.

I had one student say he hoped his wife upped his allowance because he got a raise!

If you want set gender roles come to the land of the rising sun! (I swear this place is so backwards sometimes...)

[Da Git]

My soapbox

Part of the reason this gets under my skin is due to the Dark Carnival threads that sprung up about designing homebrew rules for those models. A large part of that is probably due to obvious love of the models and wanting to have fun with it which is cool and I totally appreciate. This game is amazing and it can truly spawn some inventive ideas and maybe that's all this is, fans showing their love of the amazing models coming out this GenCon.

But viewed through the "model X sucks" lens, guaranteed there's some amount of work from people who think "Well Master X currently is unplayable so I'll use this as an opportunity to create a master that is clearly better balanced." Do I believe people participated in this design exercise thinking Wyrd will take these homebrewed rules and adopt them? No. But it can be seen as indicative of this overarching theme that bugs the shit out of me. Especially if you view it through the "what would a new player think reading the forums" mentality that gets mentioned as a concern by people. Is Malifaux so poorly designed that the community has to make up their own shit, ala GW and the ludicrous amount of work necessary for their rules to be playable.

I don't know, maybe I tacked on my Dark Carnival thoughts to my base grumblings about the whiners out of frustration. I guess to sum up my soapbox in a way that anyone who's read the forums can understand. Yan Lo isn't a broken, useless master that sucks. Maybe you just don't know how to play him.

I feel the need to respond to this as I'm one of the main people involved. I'm really confused about the problem of making homebrew rules. For me, creating my own characters and rules is part of the fun of wargaming. Yes I come from a GW background from when it was completely normal and encouraged to make your own rules. One of my joys was going through all the fandexes out there (I even made my own Norse Armybook for Fantasy.

Point is writing rules for some people is fun. Wyrd has the best balanced game I've played but why should that stop me making rules and having fun. That's like telling people they can't make their own paint schemes.

None of what we're doing is designed to be offensive to Wyrd, quite the opposite. The models and fluff are inspiring us to do this.

[Palooka]

I have noticed this as well.

 

I think we may need to change up how the beta is done in the future.

 

Justin mate, I implore you - don't change the Beta - it's one of the things I admire most about this game and community. It would be a real tragedy for it to go belly up because of a few complainy-pants.

[Gremlin guy]

Please don't use him/her, she/he, one, (S)he, hir, or anything like those. They make it clunky and distracting, disturbing what is otherwise an enjoyable read.

She is fine, as is he. Unless you are talking specifically about a male or female, it shouldn't matter which you use.

(The above is my opinion and may not reflect yours)

[SpectreEliteGaming]

I know I said I wasn't going to post again, but I'm back for another round of drama!

Prepare yourselves for a verbal asswhuppin'!!!

Just kidding. What I would really like is a response to something I bring up (excessively) often. I didn't want to make a seperate topic and this thread is all over the place, anyway.

Is it possible to get a statement by a Wyrd employee (Justin or Nathan - the rest of you mean nothing to me ) about your stance on nudity, in general? Is this something that will definitively not be explored anymore? Any reasoning behind your stance would be great, in addition.

I'm not looking for a dispute - I just want to know what to/not to expect. I'll even promise not to respond to the response, if need be. I've never really seen a definitive response to this before and I know that you guys have produced (partial) nude models in the past.

I just want to know the view on the topic - as I'm sure you know - if I want boobs or a dong I'll just put it on myself, so your perspective won't change what I want or how I can get it.

When I say "needs moar beeeeewwwwbs" what I really mean is "I would like it more if it was more sexualized because it would definitely add to the appeal of this particular model." Sometimes some things are more horrifying or more beautiful when they are naked, thats all. Thanks.

-----

Feel free to drop the "he/she" and "one" topic. I totally don't care. That was only meant to be an example of how some topics aren't important to some people and really unbelievably important to others and to display the dismissive responses (which all of you provided, yourselves) to said silly topic when other people don't share that view. This happens all the time to all sorts of different topics and so its not practical to facilitate everyone's personal quirks.

[edonil]

Want to know why I commented on that issue? Because of a Hugo winning novel, Ancillary Justice. It won a ton of awards, and it deserved every bit of them. It was a fascinating scifi book, with good characters, an interesting plot and a well developed setting that was just enthralling. Oh, and the author, Ann Leckie, did an interesting quirk. The main character is from a society where gender is irrelevant, so every character is referred to by one pronoun- she.

And people exploded in rage over that. Just because of that quirk, people are sending death threats to this author. And most of them it isn't because of a genderless society, it's because the chosen pronoun is female. If the only pronoun used was "he" they wouldn't have a problem. And these are all men making this complaint, and the threats. Everyone else went either "oh, that's interesting," or "that annoyed me because I couldn't keep track of who was who." But the group pissed off was exclusively male, and they are quite violent in their language expressing it.

All this over a single book that was well written which was different. That's ridiculous.

[Astrella]

 

And again.

Breasts are natural. Breasts are blameless. Breasts are sexual. They are meant by evolution exactly that way. Women have breasts, miniature women have miniature breasts, and reflect the various rates of showing/hiding them of the real world.

Breasts are not inherently sexual, that's primarily a Western thing. And hey, nudity can be both sexual and non-sexual.

[Ferossa]

Breasts are not inherently sexual, that's primarily a Western thing. And hey, nudity can be both sexual and non-sexual.

 

Breasts aren't sexual unless a woman has given you consent to sexualise her. Breasts are not consent for sexualisation.

 

S'why you can't call men babies. Babies know what breasts are actually for.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Breasts aren't sexual unless a woman has given you consent to sexualise her. Breasts are not consent for sexualisation.

S'why you can't call men babies. Babies know what breasts are actually for.

[dgraz]

S'why you can't call men babies. Babies know what breasts are actually for.

Now who's insulting what gender?

[Ferossa]

Now who's insulting what gender?

 

I'm insulting the men who think a woman's breasts exist for their sexual satisfaction. Was that unclear?

[zFiend]

S'why you can't call men babies. Babies know what breasts are actually for.

 

Actually.. That doesn't classify just those men, that is a universal generalization on the whole male gender as it is worded. 

[Ferossa]

Actually.. That doesn't classify just those men, that is a universal generalization on the whole male gender as it is worded. 

 

Not all men. I know tons of men who know to treat women with respect. The ones who don't are merely worse than mewling, puking babies.

 

You have plenty of men in the thread arguing that all men want to sexualise women. Your quarrel is with the men making your gender look bad, not with the woman mocking them.

[zFiend]

Not all men.

 

But that doesn't really come out from your sentence at all.

[Dirial]

Deep breaths, people...

 

The Mods are sleeping, true, but deleting everything 10 hrs back is a lot of work. Let's spare them.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Dirial- I hope not - I want my nudity question answered - does anyone know/rememberthem saying if they took a firm stance against it or somethig - or have they just ditched the boobies?