All the things you want to soapbox and/or have debate about in Malifaux

[moxypoo]

Imperator Furiosa is from Mad Max Fury Road.

 

Ah, haven't seen that.  I'm not a fan of all the CGI laden remakes Hollywood is spitting out lately.  I'm old school - give me real life explosions and people in costumes smashing model cities!

 

 

Yes, Malifaux has pretty great inclusion, comparatively, but what does increasing it cost Wyrd? Are male gamers not going to buy a box because it only has female models? Are white people not going to buy a box because it's full of black models?

 

 

Who knows? Maybe, maybe not.  That's why I suggested that WE don't have enough data to accurately make conclusions about this (I'm sure Wyrd does though). I've stated a bunch of times that I don't care what direction Wyrd goes in as long as it makes the most financial sense so that they continue to produce products that I enjoy.

 

Just a point that I haven't seen yet: just about any human model can be painted to be any race.  My three Ronin are white, black, and Asian.  As long as the character doesn't have a specific backstory the race isn't specified at all.  A lot of the stories in the Chronicles don't specify race for the characters (outside of 10T stories), so you can imagine them however you want.

 

I'm in this game because I like the giant, stompy death robots with grenade launchers, Voodoo swamp hags that want your spleen, abominations that assimilate you into one of them, killer Teddy bears with teeth as long as my arm, babies carrying around butcher knives, drunk gremlin hillbillies, and all manner of other terrifying monsters.  Don't really care much about the normal people in the game - normal people are boring.  I interact with normal people all day, so when I participate in my hobby I want experiences that aren't normal.

[Dirial]

Ah, haven't seen that.  I'm not a fan of all the CGI laden remakes Hollywood is spitting out lately.  I'm old school - give me real life explosions and people in suits smashing model cities!

Fury Road had real stunts instead of CGI....

[Philosfr]

Not that my 2 cents are needed, but I wanted to throw them in since Wyrd does pay so much attention to the community.

 

I play a lot of games, RPG's, computer games, miniature games. My wife is also a gamer, but she pretty much sticks with computer games. Or she did until she started seeing some of my painted Malifaux miniatures. Wyrd's sculpts pulled in her attention and now she's been learning to play. So my whole data point of 1 says that Wyrd does a great job of interesting at least one female with their sculpts, more so than any of the other dozens of miniature games I've shown my wife.

 

As far as body types and clothing styles represented? I'm all on board, but I'm very leery of the pendulum swinging too far in any one direction. When I game, I don't "picture myself on the table", whether I'm playing a computer game or a RPG or anything. In my mind it's more like I'm directing a movie that I'd love to watch. I have absolutely zero interest seeing a miniature on the table that looks like me, because that's what I see in the mirror every morning. My wife completely agrees with this. We both enjoy fantasy gaming for the fantastical elements. I like miniatures that look awesome, even if completely unrealistic. 

 

This means 4' tall scrawny models that have the strength to swing telephone poles. Massive 400lb beasts that can do back-flips like their in Cirque du Soliel. Berserkers bare chested in kilts that are fighting metal constructs with whirling blades. The artwork for Miss Anne Thrope is a great example of this. Both my wife and I thought it was fantastic. Impractical? Oh yeah. As impractical as a guy fighting in a 3 piece suit. That doesn't mean it doesn't look awesome in the movie theater of my mind though.

 

As I said, I'm all for different body types and styles. The crew I cast in the movie of my minds eye might not be the same choice that you would cast. That's totally cool and you should get what you want as well. Just don't take away what I want in the process. I would completely loose interest in new Wyrd models if they all started dressing in turtle necks and baggy pants. If they all were about 15 pounds overweight. If they clearly looked like they hadn't been to the gym in the last few months. 

 

Malifaux is a fantasy. Give us all fantastical sculpts in a wide variety. I'll keep throwing my (and now my wife's) money at Wyrd.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yes, Malifaux has pretty great inclusion, comparatively, but what does increasing it cost Wyrd? Are male gamers not going to buy a box because it only has female models? Are white people not going to buy a box because it's full of black models?

 

I'm largely staying out of this debate, but this comment seems a little under thought. Please take no offense, as I mean none, but if your argument is that Wyrd should make more inclusive models, because buying such models will appeal to the segment of the popular they represent, surely the equal and opposite argument is that yes, it will turn off some portion of the segment of society that the miniatures do not represent.

 

You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that changing the demographics the sculpts represent will only have a positive influence. If you argue buying habits will change because of what, specifically, is depicted, you have to accept that it will potentially go down as well.

 

So yes, there is a segment of gamers that will not buy a box because it is full of women/black/asian/insert cultural/racial/gender demographic here. Conversely there is a segment that will buy specifically for that reason. Which is the point of why I feel this is a very weak argument.

 

I personally have not done the research, and I have no idea. It could be a net positive, with more of the represented demographics buying in vs the few that drop off, equally it could only be a few that buy in because their social conditioning/ economic status/ access to gaming community do not make them likely to buy in, and you will still have some loss. The point being, that in order to make the argument you are, you'd need vastly more hard business numbers than I feel that any of us outside Wyrd, and even possibly themselves, could realistically have.

 

I'm not personally endorsing one way or the other. Wyrd makes some sculpts I absolutely love, and they've made quite a few I don't like, and I've never been shy about saying what I think about that topic. I feel if you want to make the case for more inclusivity, that's totally cool, and a worthwhile goal. Just don't base that argument on this particular reasoning, because it's weak, and only backed up be anecdotal evidence. 

[Kapten Vendetta]

Malifaux is a fantasy. Give us all fantastical sculpts in a wide variety. I'll keep throwing my (and now my wife's) money at Wyrd.

 

*Sigh* and the male-centric world view continues unabated. But you should know friend, it's all your wife's money.

[Kadeton]

I've been reading through this thread since it started. I haven't commented because I get very emotionally invested in issues of representation. There have been many moments of teeth-grinding frustration at various points, and I've decided not to engage.

 

There have also been some really eloquent statements, and I'm really thankful that those voices have been given an opportunity here to speak, and that they have had the courage to do so in the face of inevitable opposition. Ferossa and AdmiralVorkraft in particular have driven the conversation forward, so to them, and those who posted in support of them - thank you. These things need to be said, often, and loudly, or they get drowned out.

 

I hope this thread continues to generate important discussion. The amount of moderation, and the personal involvement of staff, demonstrate what an emotional issue this can be for everyone. If you're someone who thinks that all this is just an overreaction, political correctness, etc or that a company can't do anything to influence the culture that exists around the media it produces, there are a ton of resources available online to help you understand why these issues are a problem for everyone, not just for women, people of colour, people of diverse genders and sexualities, or other minority groups in a cultural narrative dominated by white heterosexual men. Try googling terms like privilege, rape culture, objectification, representation and positive action.

 

Try to step back from the gut reaction - "But why are you blaming me? I'm not like that!" - it's not about you. It's about improving things for everyone.

[Philosfr]

*Sigh* and the male-centric world view continues unabated. But you should know friend, it's all your wife's money.

I'm not sure how that's male-centric. Just shy of half of the gamers I usually play with are female. And I only say slightly less than half because 7 people doesn't make for a good 50-50 ratio unless there's a hermaphrodite in the mix (though I'm not sure how politically correct that statement would be, I don't know any personally).

 

Are you saying females can't have fantasies? They are incapable of wanting something fantastical that looks awesome on the table? That females never want to escape the banalities of real world problems and jump into a world where they can dress like they want, and not worry about what people will say to them because they carry around a 200 lb battle axe?

 

The real world is diverse. You can't argue for diversity and then say there should be no petite women or body-builder guys or body-builder women or petitite guys or whatever style/shape/variety of pose. I'm happy Wyrd has as much variety as they do. It allows for everyone to find something they like. But if Wyrd goes heavily in one direction, either a politically sanitized version where gender is ambiguous or an overly sexualized fetish-fest and that's a problem. Diversity means diversity.  

[Math Mathonwy]

The blister of metal Pistolero's that I bought includes a woman--which is one of the issues I am having in this thread.  While folks are looking at the Ronin and criticizing, they seem to be completely unaware that there is a female Pistolero, well covered.  Granted not all of the Pistoleros are women, but let's not speak as if they are all men.

Can you name one box of three models that contains two women and one man? Does the answer to this question make you think?

Boxes with only women are for those models whose fluff casts them as exclusively female such as Oiran and Belles and such. The sole exception to this is the Ronin whose fluff doesn't define them all being necessarily women. But no other box of models includes "randomly" all women. And if a box includes a woman, it's always one woman and two men.

 

You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that changing the demographics the sculpts represent will only have a positive influence. If you argue buying habits will change because of what, specifically, is depicted, you have to accept that it will potentially go down as well.

White men really, really don't have a problem of representation in media. They just don't have that problem so representation is generally less important to them.

[Philosfr]

Oh, and and a bonus two cents, I would LOVE to have more gender balanced box sets like Math Mathonwy is referring to. Nameless minion packs are an excellent place where diversity can shine. You don't like the female version wearing a short skirt because it would be impractical? Ok, use the female version that's wearing comfortable slacks. Meanwhile my wife can use the shirtless beefcake in a kilt, because minions come in 3's.

 

Not only that, but I loath fielding sculpts that are too similar to each other. I would love to be able to have a male and female model of most minions, so that when I'm trying to keep track of which one is which, it's very easy to identify. I don't have to say "well, it's the squatting male pose instead of the crouching male pose", or whatever.

 

This holds true for things that are stereo-typically gendered. I see no reason there can't be a male belle. There are plenty of examples in history and fiction to use. Need a male oiran? Just look at Japan's visual kei for source material there.

[Kapten Vendetta]

I'm not sure how that's male-centric. Just shy of half of the gamers I usually play with are female. And I only say slightly less than half because 7 people doesn't make for a good 50-50 ratio unless there's a hermaphrodite in the mix (though I'm not sure how politically correct that statement would be, I don't know any personally).

 

Are you saying females can't have fantasies? They are incapable of wanting something fantastical that looks awesome on the table? That females never want to escape the banalities of real world problems and jump into a world where they can dress like they want, and not worry about what people will say to them because they carry around a 200 lb battle axe?

 

The real world is diverse. You can't argue for diversity and then say there should be no petite women or body-builder guys or body-builder women or petitite guys or whatever style/shape/variety of pose. I'm happy Wyrd has as much variety as they do. It allows for everyone to find something they like. But if Wyrd goes heavily in one direction, either a politically sanitized version where gender is ambiguous or an overly sexualized fetish-fest and that's a problem. Diversity means diversity.  

 

OK...so that was a swing and a miss, I apologize. But to be fair, I originally planned to go with: "Naah! It thinks it's people.".

 

And just to be really, really, really clear, my original post was a stab at the old joke that married men have no money, only the money given to them by their wives.

 

So... yeah... moving along now.

[Philosfr]

OK...so that was a swing and a miss, I apologize. But to be fair, I originally planned to go with: "Naah! It thinks it's people.".

 

And just to be really, really, really clear, my original post was a stab at the old joke that married men have no money, only the money given to them by their wives.

 

 

I did see the joke, but refrained from commenting, probably out of undue fear. While I appreciated the thought, I wasn't sure how a comment on what is an essentially sexist joke would go over in a thread talking about the representation of female sculpts in Wyrd's product line. That fear is what I think we should be fighting against though.

 

I personally want Malifaux to be as diverse as real life is. Old people, young people, fat people, skinny people, men, women, sexy people, ugly people, white people, black people, religious people, atheist people. I'm as liberal as it gets when it comes to these sorts of things.

 

What I don't want to see is the excessive sanitation of all things. A joke about all a man's possessions belonging to his wife after marriage is technically sexist, but that doesn't mean it has to be demeaning. My wife certainly uses that joke often enough!

[Jonasty]

Not quite sure how this turned into the equality in gaming thread but I don't have any real feedback worth sharing on that particular topic, points good and bad have been raised by lots of folks better than I could so I'll leave well enough alone.

 

My soapbox:

 

I'm completely tired of reading various forum threads that amount to "Model X sucks, can't believe they made it out of Beta that way, they need tons of stuff to be playable, Wyrd should fix this, blah, blah, blah, whine!"

 

Without a doubt Malifaux is one of the best balanced wargames on the market today. Invariably someone will respond to these posts with a story about how a model was completely awesome or how a derided Master was the one that won the tournament they were in. Yet for some reason these threads keep popping up and it really is because of the Beta mentality that some people seem to have accepted as the norm for Malifaux. Wyrd was very generous in their decision to include the population at large in testing the update to 2E and the new models coming in Book 3. It obviously led to a much tighter rules set and better play experience. That being said the Beta is over and people need to accept that these models are what they are and are functioning as Justin and Wyrd intended. Sure there might be a specific rule or clarification needed on how something is worded but the basic function of these models is what it is and people need to stop calling things broken.

 

Part of the reason this gets under my skin is due to the Dark Carnival threads that sprung up about designing homebrew rules for those models. A large part of that is probably due to obvious love of the models and wanting to have fun with it which is cool and I totally appreciate. This game is amazing and it can truly spawn some inventive ideas and maybe that's all this is, fans showing their love of the amazing models coming out this GenCon.

 

But viewed through the "model X sucks" lens, guaranteed there's some amount of work from people who think "Well Master X currently is unplayable so I'll use this as an opportunity to create a master that is clearly better balanced." Do I believe people participated in this design exercise thinking Wyrd will take these homebrewed rules and adopt them? No. But it can be seen as indicative of this overarching theme that bugs the shit out of me. Especially if you view it through the "what would a new player think reading the forums" mentality that gets mentioned as a concern by people. Is Malifaux so poorly designed that the community has to make up their own shit, ala GW and the ludicrous amount of work necessary for their rules to be playable?

 

I don't know, maybe I tacked on my Dark Carnival thoughts to my base grumblings about the whiners out of frustration. I guess to sum up my soapbox in a way that anyone who's read the forums can understand. Yan Lo isn't a broken, useless master that sucks. Maybe you just don't know how to play him.

[rgarbonzo]

I see that we lack anyone who spends a substantial amount of time on the "A Wyrd Place" Facebook group.  (a fan site not licensed or endorsed by Wyrd, but which seems to have a few Wyrd corporate members)

 

Surprisingly no there isn't a lack of AWP representation, I happen to be one of the admins there spending my time answering questions and generally being helpful. 

[Kapten Vendetta]

I did see the joke, but refrained from commenting, probably out of undue fear. While I appreciated the thought, I wasn't sure how a comment on what is an essentially sexist joke would go over in a thread talking about the representation of female sculpts in Wyrd's product line.

 

Because it's meta-reasoning! That's why it's funny! Funny and clever.    And ironic, since explaining something in a meta setting means it's even more meta, and the explenation (of the explenation) itself is even more so...and so it goes, on and on and on. (My head hurts...)

 

But I digress, and no one should adress this post, let us get back to the topic(s) at hand. Adieu!

 

(And now I see Yan Lo has been mentioned, and I prepare to cover in the trenches, nightmare visions of tiny beards assailing my every waking hour...)

 

But! Since I came to think of it; something I've always wondered about: how do these tiny, tiny pieces make the cut, seeing as there are no (to me) logical reasons for them to be separte pieces to begin with. Why Wyrd, why?! I demand answers since I'm a guy on the internet with entitlement-issues.

[entropolous]

 Old people, young people, fat people, skinny people, men, women, sexy people, ugly people, white people, black people, religious people, atheist people.

 

Just please no short and tall people...we've had enough "why can't Wyrd into model scale" threads.  

[edonil]

Wyrd doesn't always set the cuts, the company that makes the mold does. They reengineer the sculpt and make cuts based on what's easy for them first and primary.

[Justin]

Perfect. Same goes for women offended by the inclusive "he" right? They should go find a game that doesn't exist.

If you want fair - "he/she" and "one" is fair. If you want special treatment go ahead and give an inclusive "her" and feel good about your moral charity. Your not fixing whatever silly slight or inconsideration there is - you are skewing it and making a display.

If people want to pick hairs about whats appropriate or inappropriate to get upset about and offended by - two can play and I'm awefully creative.

Let's strive for that equality peeps.

 

As the one who wrote the rules in the feminine, you misunderstand my intentions.

 

When writing rules the most important things are clarity and brevity.

 

Saying he or she all the time adds more text to the rules, which adds more length, drops down lines, and screws up my layout.

 

Saying "one" just doesn't make sense. "When a player draws a card, one puts them in one's hand."

 

Saying "their" would be much more acceptable, at least according to common speech. "When a player draws a card, they put it in their hand." Most people wouldn't raise an eyebrow over that, but it is technically incorrect as they and their are plural terms and the text is referring to a single player. And technically correct counts for a lot in grammar.

 

So "he" or "she" were really the only valid options when it came to clarity and brevity. We went with she for the minis game and he for the roleplaying game.

[Justin]

I think it's stupid to get offended by any personal pronoun.

I also might not fully grasp the gravity of the situation, as Finnish doesn't have gender specific personal pronouns.

 

Next book gets written in Finnish.

[Myyrä]

Next book gets written in Finnish.

Finally! Call me up if you need any help.

[Ferossa]

As a point of interest, "they/their" became singular neuter around the time of the printing press. The thorn which marked the "th" sound in English couldn't be reproduced on German printing presses, so they replaced it with a Y. "Thou" turns into "you" and the formal plural form of address becomes the second personal singular and plural. When you combine the printing press with the Renaissance and the surge of enthusiasm for Latin grammar, you get the adoption of the Neuter Singular, but backwards because Germanic and Latin grammar don't mesh that well. And so, when you want to use the neuter singular pronoun, you use the neuter plural. The singular "they" has been in recorded use since the 1790s.

 

If you've ever hated the English language, now you know why.

[Dirial]

 

If you've ever hated the English language, now you know why.

 

Well, in German, the third person singular for females and plural are the same. That word also represents the formal second person singular (a concept not existing in English). Other languages have it bad as well.

[Kapten Vendetta]

As always, the swedes have the answer, just use "hen". Now, some people in Sweden (mainly on the swedish-internet - yes we have our own, it is filled with fire, brimstone and inadequasis) say we can't use hen because it means something different in english...

 

Yeah...

 

That's why I never use the word "barn" because it is a place to store things like cattle and bales of hay in.

[Justin]

Without a doubt Malifaux is one of the best balanced wargames on the market today. Invariably someone will respond to these posts with a story about how a model was completely awesome or how a derided Master was the one that won the tournament they were in. Yet for some reason these threads keep popping up and it really is because of the Beta mentality that some people seem to have accepted as the norm for Malifaux. 

 

I have noticed this as well.

 

I think we may need to change up how the beta is done in the future.

[Kapten Vendetta]

I have noticed this as well.

 

I think we may need to change up how the beta is done in the future.

 

Not a bad idea all things considered, as long as some input remains from the community, if nothing else then for the piece of mind you'd get from knowing that the community couldn't blame everything on you alone when a player fails to win a game somewhere down the road...

[Ferossa]

I have noticed this as well.

 

I think we may need to change up how the beta is done in the future.

 

Is there a happy medium? I'm interested in story encounters and thematic re-fluffs of models, and I think it would be interesting to have a community spotlight for variant crews and "What If" rules scenarios. It wouldn't be tournament legal, but it's company acknowledgement of fannish passion, and I think there would be less incentive to complain about post-Beta models if people were given parameters for tweaking and playing with them.

 

I think the open beta is one of the reason Malifaux is so balanced and plays so smoothly. I'd be disappointed to lose it.