All the things you want to soapbox and/or have debate about in Malifaux

[Dirial]

1) Is Wyrd in a position to influence the general sexism in the gaming community?

2) If it is, how can it do that while maintaining the integrity of the awesome setting we all know and love?

(Same questions about racism, religious intolerance, etc.)

 

ad 1. Yes. Granted, Wyrd isn't as big as other companies, but the game is usually well received as one that will get bigger not smaller. The design of Malifaux is pretty unique on the market right now, in multiple aspects. Also, that game is young enough that changes in art direction won't alienate a lot of people. That's the power to influence the community, at least in your pocket of the market.

I cannot tell you how glad I was when my wife agreed to game with me. She had seen me play WH40k and WM/H, and was politely interested. When I introduced her to Malifaux, she was excited to jump in. She didn't like some of the more sexy female sculpts (and she is somewhat wary of buying Trixie), but she likes the general theme. I am pretty stoked about it still, 2 years after.

So, after seeing my own experience, I think Malifaux already influences the sexism in the gaming community. It's a game inclusive enough for my reluctant wife to pick up and enjoy. Two of my friends had similar things happen to them. Now when we meet to play, there'll be at least one female. When we talk, we are mindful of females (and yes, we still make sexist jokes. They do, too. It's hard to get that out, and I hope we stay on the fun side of jokes, and that anybody who feels hurt speaks up, but it's hard to tell.) Still, the local community feels way more inclusive towards females since Malifaux was introduced. The power is there. And that leads to question 2.

 

ad 2. Those females all play Gremlins, though. I suspect that they do it because Gremlins are caricatures of the male power fantasies that are so prevalent in gaming (and because they are small, cute, and do ridiculous things). My wife played Perdita, too, and wore a cowboy hat for the game. I suspect that playing a bad ass gunslinger who happens to be female did a lot for her enjoyment, too. Ironsides is a thing. Some girls surely identify with Viktorias or Lady Justice. But it could obviously be better. I'll include another question and answer both:

 

So I'm trying to wrap my head around the endpoint of the "wyrd is misogynist/racist" side of the argument.

 

Is the goal to have an exactly equal male to female ratio with all the varied female body types as well as an exactly equal number of all races represented in the models?  Genuine question, because that's the natural endpoint of this argument.

 

Not necessarily. This is not a statistics exercise (at least not for me). It's Wyrd's setting, and style and setting should be their first consideration because if they don't love it, they will stop doing it, and who'd want that?

The goal is for setting to be inclusive to as many people as possible. Women should feel welcome, as should people of non-white origin, different cultural background, or different sexual preference. That doesn't mean the same thing for each of them, I gather. Women happened to realise during the feminist movement that there are a lot of them, so they generally tend to want that in their representation. I gather that it wouldn't be needed, if they were everywhere instead: Not 50:50 men:women, but women as Peons, Minions, Enforcers, Henchmen, as bruisers and tanks, as Scheme runners, as spell slingers, of different body types, of different age, and of different prettiness. Not every other mini has to be a woman, but it should be obvious that women are everywhere and individually different. I'd like to see people of color, too, in differing positions. I wouldn't be opposed if, in some future story, one sentence explains that Sonnia and Samael never had a fling because one of them prefers their own sex (Can be other people, just an example. I like that they are professionals and friends and not romantically involved in any way at the moment. But I wouldn't be opposed.)

[rgarbonzo]

Wyrd made the choice of using the female pronoun instead of male throughout the first rulebook, I think they have done more to establish strong characters, both male and female, than most. I mean Perdita is basically a teenager when she comes across the Breach but she, not Papa loco, leads her family defering only to Abuela, similarly, Ophelia rejects the notion of female gremlins being only good for reproduction and assembles her own crew and steals Perdita's hat to boot! Marcus is black and Myranda is McMourning's neice but they have some kind of connection and I think it is cool and it doesn't matter that they have differing melanin levels. There are plenty of things Wyrd has done to make Malifaux more inclusive, Mah Tuckett and her crew of all ladies is one example. As far as models for other factions, the Oxfordian Mages look like they have some loose robes on, why can't they be female? I haven't seen it stated that they have one gender or skin color over another.  

[Dirial]

Wyrd made the choice of using the female pronoun instead of male throughout the first rulebook, I think they have done more to establish strong characters, both male and female, than most. I mean Perdita is basically a teenager when she comes across the Breach but she, not Papa loco, leads her family defering only to Abuela, similarly, Ophelia rejects the notion of female gremlins being only good for reproduction and assembles her own crew and steals Perdita's hat to boot! Marcus is black and Myranda is McMourning's neice but they have some kind of connection and I think it is cool and it doesn't matter that they have differing melanin levels. There are plenty of things Wyrd has done to make Malifaux more inclusive, Mah Tuckett and her crew of all ladies is one example. As far as models for other factions, the Oxfordian Mages look like they have some loose robes on, why can't they be female? I haven't seen it stated that they have one gender or skin color over another.  

 

True. So, what does that mean for you/me/us/Wyrd? More of that, or is it enough?

[edonil]

One of the Oxfordian Mage models is female, and the most senior of the group that shows up in Crossroads is a woman, Estella Bellinger.

[scarlett fever]

1, Yes. As seems to be shown by the apparent diversity of this group and the ability to have these discussions openly in the forum (as compared to other games). I've already stated my view point on environment and its ability to shape mindsets. No one expects you to change the world but it's amazing what conscious little acts can achieve, one subtle step at a time.

And you are in the positions of power here. There were some fantastic rants and essays in this thread, if you're in any doubt you can influence communities you just need to read back through them again.

 

2, You got this far through diversity, keep pushing that envelope, why stop? Dirial and Admiralvorkraft covered this pretty solidly, as have many others in this thread.

 

In the end we're all here because we want to play/paint Malifaux. I think a lot of us were drawn into it over other games for similar reasons.

[Dhampir]

There are no "Australians" in Malifaux because Malifaux is Australia. Think about it...

 

As an inhabitant of Malifaux Australia, I would like to confirm. If it moves it's trying to kill you; the local fauna and flora are out to get you. Getting out of bed each day is taking a gamble on your life  (well staying in bed is equally dangerous due to venomous hoop snakes particular liking of warm bed covers).

 

(Just to bring a light hearted break in the conversation)

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Hey - since we're still on this whole gender topic - and well, its getting kinda tedious and boring - figured I'd drop an idea. Or maybe its because my last post got almost entirely bah-leeted...

You know how the rulebook was designed refering to the reader as "she" and "her." Well, I see what you did thar and its a nice little gesture - but honestly it comes off as being ingenuine - like one of those tacky new-age ways of thinking rather than having legitimate meaning or purpose. Its like those goofy people who refer to god as "her" - not necessarily because they view god like that but only to trick their listener into asking "why are you refering to god as female?" They proceed to smile because trap card activated or whatever, and then people facepalm and stop talking to them because they're being ingenuine just to get a riseor attention. Kinda like that - feels more like "look what we did - we're putting on disply that we are going out of our way to appeal to female gamers" than "lets be politically correct to make sure we don't marginalize a potential audience."

The appropriate action would be to use the tried and true "he/she" or "one." Works miracles and it doesn't look like you are going out of your way to try hard to look genuine when there's obviously an agenda.

Swaying the spectrum all the way from traditional "he" to new age 'forward thinking' "she" doesn't change anything.

TL;DR - Let's refer to the reader as he/she and one - that's about as "fair" and "equal" as you get.

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Now let's talk about the lack of "little people" in this game. I would love a midget psycho hooker for my birthday. Preferably a ginger, thanks.

EDIT: Just remembered we do have Copycat Killer, so nevermind, I guess?

[Kapten Vendetta]

 

1) Is Wyrd in a position to influence the general sexism in the gaming community?
2) If it is, how can it do that while maintaining the integrity of the awesome setting we all know and love?

 

1) Yes and with the juggernaut on the ropes (if you believe the sky is falling) I don't think there ever has been a better time to get new blood to the game, now, wouldn't it be nice if those spineless deserters - roaming aimlessly, nerdrage spent, in search of moar plastic krak - stumbled upon a game where the concensus was "this is Ironsides, she is awesome." Dot, just dot.

 

2) I think this is a 'least amount of work for greatest benefit' type of thing. In regards to artwork and what not, how hard can it be to alter skintone? How hard to alter bodyshape, how hard to think "this is a skirt and sometimes skirts end below the knee, and that's OK".

 

Not all the time, for every page of art, but - you know - every now and again.

 

The art of a game is not to be disregarded, for many of us it gives as much thrill as the models themselves, and to have greater diversity in the art, will lead to the idea of diversity in the world of the game itself.

 

Images are powerful things.

[zFiend]

The appropriate action would be to use the tried and true "he/she" or "one." Works miracles and it doesn't look like you are going out of your way to try hard to look genuine when there's obviously an agenda.

 

This actually something I thought about too. Usually the one's calling it out for equality refer to this. "They even wrote the rulebook in her" but that's not equality at all.  

[Dirial]

EDIT: Just remembered we do have Copycat Killer, so nevermind, I guess?

 

Mouse, too, who is actually an intelligent guy with an agenda. Good example of inclusion, I think. 

[Myyrä]

This actually something I thought about too. Usually the one's calling it out for equality refer to this. "They even wrote the rulebook in her" but that's not equality at all.

It's not about equality and I believe no one has claimed that it is. It is a small way of extending a hand towards women gamers. If someone is offended by that, I personally wouldn't mind if he decides to choose another game. In fact, I might be glad he does.

[zFiend]

It's not about equality and I believe no one has claimed that it is. It is a small way of extending a hand towards women gamers. If someone is offended by that, I personally wouldn't mind if he decides to choose another game. In fact, I might be glad he does.

 

Not offended by that, just thought it was funny.  

[r4st4f4n]

The reason there are people out there who think it's okay to be terrible people is because they are on the extreme ends of a spectrum. And there will always be people at the extreme edges of a spectrum. Therefore, an attempt to eliminate ass-slapping rape-talking bigots cannot really be made with those people directly. Instead, the aim is to shift the center of the spectrum (i.e. the average wargaming) a little more to the inclusive side. As the average player becomes more accepting and inclusive, so too the extremes will begin to shift over time (and those that stay extreme will be marginalized to their basements instead of their LGS).

Yep. Nazis were defeated by shifting the center of the spectrum more to the inclusive side.

 

Blah, I'm modding my post on my own. It's not even worth it....

Edited July 6, 2015 by r4st4f4n

[Dirial]

Yep. Nazis were defeated by shifting the center of the spectrum more to the inclusive side.

 

And we have a Hitler reference. Godwin's law in full effect.

 

[zFiend]

And we have a Hitler reference.

 

Yeah. And we have liftoff! 

[edonil]

And we have a Hitler reference. Godwin's law in full effect.

Why am I out of Likes?

...that's right, I hang out in the OTT.

[Dirial]

Why am I out of Likes?

...that's right, I hang out in the OTT.

 

Damn it. How am I going to keep up with the Fiend if you squander your Likes?

 

Erm, please carry on.

[r4st4f4n]

And we have a Hitler reference. Godwin's law in full effect.

 

What law is the one about winning an argument without discussion, by simply making fun of the other's statement to discredit it?

 

[Dirial]

What law is the one about winning an argument without discussion, by simply making fun of the other's statement to discredit it?

 

Please be sure that I don't take Nazi references lightly. I instead believe that comparing the issue of getting rid of the ingrained feeling of entitlement many men feel towards women by appealing to men to change their attitude to the fucking holocaust diminishes both the former and the latter. I made fun of the fact that Godwin's Law was proven once again, not of the argument itself.

[zFiend]

Dirial, rarely do I read you curse. Maybe we ought to bounce back to the playground and leave this as it is, before it gets out of hand? we can talk about Guild there?

[Dirial]

Dirial, rarely do I read you curse. Maybe we ought to bounce back to the playground and leave this as it is, before it gets out of hand? we can talk about Guild there?

Sigh. Good idea.

[zFiend]

Sigh. Good idea.

Guild out.

[r4st4f4n]

You should also refrain from bringing it up again, as Justin asked us to.

That's why in that post there was only that sentence left. But then it was risible...

I am convinced that WE are supposed to stop the people having these bad behaviours. In the real world. Firmly.

Not delegate it to Wyrd on the basis of a theoretical slightly possible slow shift of the extremism over the years to come, and think "OK. Let's wait!"

We are not under the law of the jungle or a dictatorship: the many win over the bully.

If we (and with "we" I intend us peers, not the victims) don't get rid of them on our own, from our confined gaming worlds, where they are serious threats of enormous size, how are we entitled to ask someone else to slightly change details here and there, because that would seriously help?

"Could you please put blue toilet signs instead of the red ones in the local? Because I just got punched in the face and robbed from a bully, and it is well known that red enhances people's aggressiveness!"

[SpectreEliteGaming]

It's not about equality and I believe no one has claimed that it is. It is a small way of extending a hand towards women gamers. If someone is offended by that, I personally wouldn't mind if he decides to choose another game. In fact, I might be glad he does.

Perfect. Same goes for women offended by the inclusive "he" right? They should go find a game that doesn't exist.

If you want fair - "he/she" and "one" is fair. If you want special treatment go ahead and give an inclusive "her" and feel good about your moral charity. Your not fixing whatever silly slight or inconsideration there is - you are skewing it and making a display.

If people want to pick hairs about whats appropriate or inappropriate to get upset about and offended by - two can play and I'm awefully creative.

Let's strive for that equality peeps.

[Dirial]

Sigh. Where I see a chance to share and improve, you see a competition.