All the things you want to soapbox and/or have debate about in Malifaux

[Inquisitor Wall]

More than any other game, malifaux has created an environment of horror without overly graphic violence, hopeless future without too much doom and gloom, and an authoritative government without going too Orwellian. More than any other game the nearly realistic, but fantasy world has been an awesome setting. I look forward to seeing these ideas continue as they begin expanding into new models, concepts and fluff in the new book. Keep up the great work, and I look forward to all the future progress both with male, female and non-gender specific characters.

Also, is the brewmaster really a human, that makes all the gremlins too drunk to notice? I mean he is height 2 and does not have a large hat.

[Ferossa]

God knows I have no interest whatsoever in going into the gender debate, but I do find this comment interesting. When has there ever been a demographic vocalizing their desire to play wargames and who also happen to be female? I mean, we are already taking about a hobby that frankly has a miniscule scope of action and almost all women I´ve seen playing wargames it´s because they are "that guy´s girlfriend" and even then they are mostly interested in the painting aspect, not so much the play aspect. Whenever this seems to come up the few times it´s popped up it´s more about being outright not interested, finding it needlessly complicated and so on, haven´t heard it being about the male centric community. Obviously my island is a very small island, so not saying I´m any holder of truth, but at the end of the day Wyrd is a business, so I´d say that if you are so sure this community exists and can interact with it, then get some signatures, that will get the engines going a lot more than having dialectic duels in the forum.

 

One of the things that I keep trying to point out is that wargaming has huge mass market appeal (it's like three-dimensional chess only BETTER) and the racist, sexist behaviour of the community (which they justify based on the depictions of the models as seen above) drives those people off before they can truly participate. Look at the massive buckets of harassment I've had to wade through in real life just for expressing and interest in the hobby. I have a curated list of what I consider "middle of the road offences" that includes a man roofieing me. That should tell you how toxic the wargaming community is for women.

 

The Tumblr tag has representation matters has hundreds of thousands of people speaking about what it's like to live within a marginalised identity.

 

 

 

How sad is it that despite being a WOC, everytime I read a novel I automatically assume all the characters in it are white unless their race/ethnic background is explicitly stated? (source)

 

I think that's relevant to discussion we've been having.

 

Here's a post with 400 notes about spending your SDCC money on companies that support representation. I think 400 people is the entire Canadian Malifaux player base.

 

Here's a post with over 20,000 notes about how a 12 year old girl has so internalised racism that if a company doesn't explicitly target her, she is assumes she is unwanted. This is what it's like being a marginalised fan. You need to fight for every inch, and if you don't have the company telling you that you're welcome, you have no reason to feel welcomed in the hobby.

 

Those are small posts. Women are incredibly nerdy. Within my local area, I know about 200 women who have left the gaming community due to the harassment and sexism. Speaking locally, it's an issue with a player who keeps threatening to rape all the women and the stores refusing to remove or discipline him. It's quiet. Never when other people are around. Usually after sneaking up behind you and rubbing a bit. But he never bothers the male players, so give him the benefit of the doubt, right? Or you could nope right out of the hobby and salt and burn the ground, since you're not getting those friends back after you call Handsy Joe a creep.

 

Women want to game. I don't know why the hobby eats its own.

[Gremlin guy]

1. That was the inspiration for Zoraida! I like her even more now.

2. I too have been roofied. It has nothing to do with the gaming culture.

3. My soapbox is probably punctuation. Without it you:

A. have people cross stitching their wife's hobbies

B. learn that barbie girls are taught to expect sexualization.

[Nathan Caroland]

It's obvious you've had some problems happen to you as you have stated and for that I'm sorry to hear and I'm not going to marginalize it. I also suggest someone take personal protection classes and break the fellas nose and manhood the next time he steps out of line. There are ways of dealing with things, and yes, sometimes blooding knuckles is an option. 

 

Might sound like I'm just yapping about it, but when my daughter had that issue, I made certain that she could take care of the situation herself should it ever come up again - and when it did, she broke the boys nose who had six inches and 90lbs on her. It sorted the issue. Besides being a kickboxer, she's also in MMA. And she's a rather petite woman. Quite a few of y'all have met her, she's the small blond that works my registers at GenCon, and no, she doesn't have an issue with breaking things. Actually, all of my children have been taught to take care of themselves, and have. The world is not a nice place for those that aren't prepared.

 

That said, if you know personally 200 women who want to war-game, might I suggest that the 200 of y'all join up and do so. I very seriously doubt that anyone is going to boohoo that, and if you make it a ladies club only, well the men can check it at the door and turn the hell around. 

[Ferossa]

I sued the guy and am still getting death threats from the store owner, the guy, and all his friends. This dude? Attacked a woman and then pressed charges when she defended herself. "Be stronger" is not the answer. Changing the community is.

 

I worked in a game stores for years and I watched hundreds of women and poc enter excited and leave defeated because they couldn't find anything that targeted them. Wyrd stands to lose nothing by expanding the diversity of their models and is poised to gain a lot if they commit to it.

 

 

 

That said, if you know personally 200 women who want to war-game, might I suggest that the 200 of y'all join up and do so. I very seriously doubt that anyone is going to boohoo that, and if you make it a ladies club only, well the men can check it at the door and turn the hell around. 

 

I can't convince women to game when the hobby is so hostile. So I hypothetically get MMA training and punch everyone who harasses me. Okay, why I should have to? Why is there the expectation that women get combat training to deal with harassment from men in the hobby, instead of the expectation that men not harass women in the hobby?

 

I've broken men's arms when they've grabbed me. It doesn't make you feel good; it makes you feel like you're part of the problem.

[DeleteAccount]

Ferossa, you do have some pretty interesting numbers, though that´s for Nathan to judge. But lets take it a step further. What would need to be changed in Malifaux to make it the inclusive game you envision? Even though later I expound why it may not be the issue, I´m still curious to know, so please tell me.

 

I´m sorry that your community or area is full of motherfucking idiots that should be shot in the back of a shed (that´s mostly for the roofy guys, the rest of them can be sorted with a few kicks to the balls), but frankly, your problem seems to me more about closed minded dorks being closed minded dorks and less about the game in question. Basically, the game could be incredibly progressive in a representation standpoint, but odds are if they like the rules, the same exact type of crowd would be there, and without exerting pressure as a "group" odds are you would have to deal with the exact same shit. Basically, the game can change all you want, but people won´t change and you do have to remember that this hobby tends to attract the socially awkward, and god knows socially awkward men that have barely ever interacted with women are a show to behold. I used to be one myself (no, I did no butt slapping, I did no roofies) in the sense of not really knowing how to interact with a woman in my little world, getting nervous and pretty much being the stereotyped "friendzoned guy" who is bitter about it, but in hindsight made all the sense in the world.

 

I got better thankfully but that pretty much only happened by interacting with women in multiple environments, loosening up and learning that a girl being nice to you does not mean you have any chances XD. So yeah, sadly, your community will only change if the people make it change, and that will happen little by little and the game certainly won´t have much of a bearing in that outside of being more or less interesting which will always be subjective. Being polite, but setting barriers (bloody ones if needed) and just getting used to each other, I would at least hope that some constant exposure would sort the bastards out, but yeah, you need to be more of a group to not just get zoned out (pack mentality and all that) and if all else fails, fuck it and create girls unofficial night in the gaming store, club or what have you and keep to yourselves, who knows, maybe some day one of the guys will come and ask for a game and the ice can be broken in a civil manner.

[Nathan Caroland]

The problem is that you think it's the hobby when it's the individual. 

 

People are assholes when they think they can get away with it. When they are in a group, it gets even worse. 

 

I also worked at a game store for years, ran by a lesbian and transgender couple out of San Francisco, and I can tell you that it's the individuals that make or break a community, not the hobby. I sold to hundreds of men and women, and I don't ever remember having to toss someone out on their ass for sexual battery, much less complaints of it, and there were a LOT of females that showed up (particularly larpers for Vampire).  Once for thievery though. 

[DeleteAccount]

The problem is that you think it's the hobby when it's the individual. 

 

People are assholes when they think they can get away with it. When they are in a group, it gets even worse. 

 

I also worked at a game store for years, ran by a lesbian and transgender couple out of San Francisco, and I can tell you that it's the individuals that make or break a community, not the hobby. I sold to hundreds of men and women, and I don't ever remember having to toss someone out on their ass for sexual battery, much less complaints of it, and there were a LOT of females that showed up (particularly larpers for Vampire).  Once for thievery though. 

Just to add a little echo, I certainly haven´t seen anything as hardcore as harassment in the communities I´ve been (larping is where I tended to see a lot more women and also a community from another city which had a decent amount of female players), at most, awkward fawning over a given girl (which is annoying on it´s own (yes, I was guilty of that one, sigh....)). Obviously, I don´t know everything that might have happened in there, but that´s my impression. This brings me to another thing, my experiences mostly stem from Madrid, what city or state are you from? For all I know it could be a regional thing where respect is clearly not valued enough.

[Justin]

You can ask any one of the fellas that has been working for me for a while how many stories or ideas that I've tossed out because it doesn't strike the right tone. 

 

Just stories in the book going to print most recently: two.

 

*grumble*

 

*grumble*

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I actually don't mind. I think having a clear, concise vision of the world is one of its strengths, and Nathan is the one who keeps it consistent. Plus when things are rejected is when I get to write.)

[scarlett fever]

Oh how I told myself I was no longer going to comment on these threads, speaking out against the conventional status quo can be exhausting, I just want to play some games!

But I want everyone to feel safe playing those games.

 

 

Sex workers are some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Rather than being "sexy" and inflicting body-violation horror on demographics who already deal with that constant threat, Seamus is a master of psychological horror. He is boyfriend who stalks you and kills you when you break up.

 

Like Humbert Humbert, Seamus is just an awful, terrible human being. He is entirely self-centred, focuses on his own infamy over practical concerns, and if he were alive today, he'd probably be calling women "whores" on the internet. In many ways, Seamus' explosion of violence echoes the motivations of male spree-killers like Brevik, Lépine, and Rodger.

 

TL;DR: Seamus isn't a good person. Wyrd knows that and has created one of the most satisfying villains to smear off the table.

 

Thanks for a new perspective on this, I think I sorely needed it. Seamus was the one part of Malifaux I loathed, only because the rape and murder of sex workers is okay in conventional society. They are the butt of all jokes, the bottom of the social pecking order whom no-one protects/respects.

 

*peeks in*


All I ask is that this game doesn't lose its edge because it wants to adhere to those who are easily offended. So far, I've really only seen one individual on the forums who takes ethical topics to the extreme - that tells me most people are either indifferent or don't have a problem with the game.
 

 

Don't see why having a range of female types wouldn't be edgy. Edgy to me is difference in society. Sitting at home watching Hostel is conventional. Edgy is having muliple female body types in a hobby awash with scantily clad barbies. Ultra-violence and porn all seems pretty much acceptible home viewing nowdays.

Edgy is the fringes of clever imagination, don't see how people interested in gender equity are going to stop that, they can only increase it and make it more inventive and interesting.

Agree I do love over-sized killer teddies and knife-wielding children, just brilliant.

 

One of the things that I keep trying to point out is that wargaming has huge mass market appeal (it's like three-dimensional chess only BETTER) and the racist, sexist behaviour of the community (which they justify based on the depictions of the models as seen above) drives those people off before they can truly participate. Look at the massive buckets of harassment I've had to wade through in real life just for expressing and interest in the hobby. I have a curated list of what I consider "middle of the road offences" that includes a man roofieing me. That should tell you how toxic the wargaming community is for women.

 

The Tumblr tag has representation matters has hundreds of thousands of people speaking about what it's like to live within a marginalised identity.

 

 

I think that's relevant to discussion we've been having.

 

Here's a post with 400 notes about spending your SDCC money on companies that support representation. I think 400 people is the entire Canadian Malifaux player base.

 

Here's a post with over 20,000 notes about how a 12 year old girl has so internalised racism that if a company doesn't explicitly target her, she is assumes she is unwanted. This is what it's like being a marginalised fan. You need to fight for every inch, and if you don't have the company telling you that you're welcome, you have no reason to feel welcomed in the hobby.

 

Those are small posts. Women are incredibly nerdy. Within my local area, I know about 200 women who have left the gaming community due to the harassment and sexism. Speaking locally, it's an issue with a player who keeps threatening to rape all the women and the stores refusing to remove or discipline him. It's quiet. Never when other people are around. Usually after sneaking up behind you and rubbing a bit. But he never bothers the male players, so give him the benefit of the doubt, right? Or you could nope right out of the hobby and salt and burn the ground, since you're not getting those friends back after you call Handsy Joe a creep.

 

Imagine you are the single (whatever easily defined stereotype you are, eg; white male) and you walk into a small space filled with some other easily defined stereotype (peoples of x descent perhaps) and they are all playing a game which has a number of white guys in compromising positions, and some in positions of power. There are casual jokes about torturing whitey (some jocular phrase, just a joke man!) when one of their figures is in a vulnerable position. Sometimes these spaces can be filled with hundreds of people, you're new and you want to feel safe and accepted. You want to feel that if you are threatened or victimised (subtly or not) you will be protected. It takes a lot of guts to be part of that first wave to break the deadlock.

 

I've been in plenty of gaming clubs and heard rape jokes.

I have two younger sisters. They both live in a seperate city to me. The eldest went through a long period of sexual harrassment in her workplace which was ignored by her managers because that was the status quo. She had to put up with porn sent to her and vile messages left on her computer as well as other comments about how 'f**kable" she was/wasn't. It turned out that her harrasser was part of the local wargaming scene. He's an accepted part of that scene, his rape jokes etc are all fine in an all-male context, I'm sure if I met him and confronted him there I'd be the scene pariah, I'd probably never get a game with anyone in that area. That's how humans work.

 

My other youngest sister is interested in wargaming, she's a big nerd and gamer. I'd love to get her into Malifaux/Wargaming but the thought of her having to put up with that sort of bulls**t and being the only women in the scene, that feels like a big responsibility to hand someone!

Wargaming is such a huge time and money commitment, it would be devastating to be led in only to have to put up with constant subtle discrimination, not being taken seriously, gender jokes when you're the only butt of the joke.

 

I've heard equally abbhorrent things from my female friends who play online games. In games that require vocal commmunication they can quickly become targets for bullying and abuse.

 

 

The problem is that you think it's the hobby when it's the individual. 

 

People are assholes when they think they can get away with it. When they are in a group, it gets even worse. 

 

This is one hundred percent true. Once you get the right environment with a balanced discourse the more difficult aspects of society and be held in a way thats okay for everybody. Even terribly sexist/racist etc movies become laughable in the right setting. Just getting to that point can take time. Wish I was gaming at your club! Perhaps we just all need to move to San Fran.

 

Malifaux is doing a pretty fine job indeed, still, no reason to feed the trolls! Putting forward alternate options and ideas does subtly influence people, it gets under their skin over time. People think they're immune but they're not, otherwise women still wouldn't have the vote. Imagine two gaming environments, one with only male figures in positions of power and the females all scantily clad, another with balanced gender roles. Imagine the nature of in-game jokes and discussions that might play out in each group, how the players visualise the gameplay. Overtime you'd expect the second group to move towards a more balnced outlook. That's just life, we think we're all autonomous but we're actually subtly fitting into out peer groups and environments, looking for acceptance, affirmation and respect.

 

 I mean, I get having physical pinnacles for stuff like Ice Dancers, Oiran or all flavors of monks, but on something like Oxfordian mages? they could have all been eating cheetos and breaking paper notes while screaming an implied lightning bolt and still work perfectly for that concept.

 

Oh man, another great conversion waiting to happen, brilliant.

[solkan]

On the topic of representation in the models, I think one of the big elements is that the presence of women in the game shouldn't be a big deal (women should just have equal representation among the human models).  The alternate sculpts like Miss Step and the others would do a lot more good if they were just regular releases.

 

If Wyrd released "all woman" boxes from now until the model gender count reaches equality produces the same sort of "the women present are present because they're exceptional" situation that the masters do.  "Oh, look, it's an all woman army.  How exceptional of them all."  That doesn't achieve any balance, that's still making a big deal about something that shouldn't be a big deal.

 

But stop to consider the Mei Feng, Kang, and the rail workers for a moment.  Mei Feng leads the rail workers, but all of the other human models in her box are men.  In order for Mei Feng to get where she is now, and like she's described in the background, Mei Feng used to be just a rail worker.  You can put a rail worker model on the table with Kang and say, "One day, that rail worker could grow up to be the next Kang."  But there's no Malifaux model that you can put on the table for "One day this woman could grow up to be the next Mei Feng."

 

(The multi-part models are a good step up for someone that has the drive to start customizing and basically making their own models, so that they get a crew that looks how they want it to look.  But customizing your models like that is still a big deal, compared to just buying a crew box, assembling it according to the instructions, and playing.  And my claim is that those models shouldn't be a big deal.)

 

The Miss models are good additions to the Malifaux line, but the problematic aspect is that they're alternate sculpts that a big deal gets made about.  "Here's an alternate woman sculpt of an existing model.  These are exceptional things you're going to have to exceptional things to get."  That's the same problem as releasing all women boxes from here until gender balance--it's making a big deal over something that shouldn't be a big deal.

 

Summary:  Please stop making the "not a man" alternate sculpts limited releases, because the model being a woman shouldn't be a big deal.  For the love of Heaven, don't stop making them, but stop making them limited releases.

[zeeblee]

I would like to point out how seeing an employee of a company potentially minimizing the experience of a populace becomes disheartening to potential new consumers.  When one woman speaks up about her experiences throughout gaming culture and has stats to back up her experiences, you shouldn't counter with "well I know a girl/woman who didn't have that experience."  It's a classic statistics vs. anecdotal evidence issue.  I don't mean to bring up a sore spot for some, but GamerGate did happen, and women in gaming communities have been harassed to the point of never wanting to touch games again.

 

For everyone here (clients and producers alike), what's wrong with saying, "I'm sorry you and so many others had that experience.  I was unaware of the problem and will now keep my eyes open.  I want to welcome you to my table and be welcome at yours.  If you feel like there isn't enough representation in the game, what can we do to help you feel more at home here?"  I doubt anyone will respond with, "Get rid of your toys!"  Right now Ferossa isn't asking for the removal of Oiran or Mccabe in order to replace them with models she likes better.  She's asking for new models that have yet to be released (be they completely new or just redesigns from 1st ed) to have maybe one or two sculpts that don't fit the current norm.  Is that really so much to consider?

[rgarbonzo]

Grems have the best male female ratio of models of any faction, just one more reason why they are the best faction eva! 

Female Gremlin Models:
Ophelia
Sammy
Merris
Zoraida
Bayou Bushwackers
Mah
Little Lass

Bayou Gators 
Lightning Bugs 
1x Young Lacroix
Piglets
War Pigs
The Sow

Trixie
Penelope
Gracie
Wild Boars
Lovely Assistant
and possibly Sparks
so that is a definitive 18 and possible 19 models - not sculpts - that are or can be female. Yup Gremlins are da bestest.

[Dirial]

The Powers that Control this Country have done an excellent job of dividing us and making us infight along the usual lines.

 

Black vs White

Christian vs Gays

Man vs Woman.

 

It's sickening to see that this Agenda has perpetrated one of the small corners of the Internet I call home.  Where is the outrage for the Black members of Malifaux?  What about the Vertically Challenged? Surely there are midgets running around Malifaux but they are VASTLY UNDERREPRESENTED. Nathan! You better do something about that , OR ELSE!

 

See how silly this sounds.  It's no more silly than arguing the Male vs Female bit that is going around.  Nathan made several points as to why the ratio is as it is and those were all valid points.  I'm still waiting for valid points to the contrary.

 

Long story short, the NWO really knows how to pull the strings on the puppets of the population, don't they?

 

Oh, I'm open for a debate of rich vs poor as well, just ask Crush. I fail to see an argument to discuss besides "You all stupid" in your post, though.

 

On the gender discussion:

 

I usually get involved in these at some point. I'm a white male who never was confronted in any way with sexual violence in gaming, neither as a victim, perpetrator or witness. I think Malifaux does damn fine in the miniatures range compared to other companies. I think the community and the Wyrd staff are nice and welcoming and mostly inclusive. So why do I get involved and argue against the state of things?

 

Because sometimes I notice how privileged I am. I meet people who have it hard (I'm a psychologist), who have been abused, and I want for them to feel like me: Safe. Respected.

 

I know that this safety and respect cannot simply be taken, it is granted; granted by the people who have it already. It's not the downtrodden who can fight for their rights, it's the oppressors who have to give some of their privileges up. In some circumstances, they were forced to, true, but that's not the point. I don't want to be forced to do something after all.

 

So, when I see someone privileged and someone unsafe now, I know who has to move. If privileges are pointed out, I react with "Well, the privileged person should know that, and it should make him feel uncomfortable, and he should share". It's the decent thing to do. How would you feel good about yourself knowing that someone out there suffers because of your privileges. I'm not talking about accomplishments here. I'm okay with "Work hard, earn more". But the inherent privileges, those we didn't do anything for, those have to go. We didn't earn them!

 

So, what does this gender and representation debate mean for me: In fact, not that much. I don't feel underrepresented, I like to look at beautiful women, I don't have to convince my wife of playing because she already does (Gremlins by the way), I feel welcomed by community and staff, and I don't think that will change significantly. However, I notice that some people don't and cannot feel that way, and I notice that it's a privilege, and I feel it's got to go. All should feel welcome, I didn't earn this feeling.

And then I think about the cost, and it isn't all that high: Some more not scantily clad females of diverse body type, some more variety in  the males, some people of color. It doesn't have to be a lot from the get go. Just a start.

 

And now comes the part where I get worked up: If anyone argues against those changes because it's good already. You know, when Nathan defends his artistic vision, I can live with that. It's not perfect, and I'll tell him, but okay. It's his vision after all. But when someone says "Be glad for what you have, and be silent" or "Come on, it's not really an issue" or "You are overly sensitive; I like it how it is", all I see is someone with privileges who says "I like my privileges, and I don't want to give them up". And I ask myself how these people feel about themselves. In their shoes, I would feel ashamed. And I feel ashamed for them. And that's when I get worked up and try to convince them to see the problem through my eyes.

And I apologize to all people who were on the receiving end of that because I can easily lose sight of the scale if I get to that point.

 

I hope I could get my feelings on this across (it's not that easy in a foreign language to express such concepts).

[The Zinc Lich]

Oh, I'm open for a debate of rich vs poor as well, just ask Crush. I fail to see an argument to discuss besides "You all stupid" in your post, though.

 

On the gender discussion:

 

*awesome ensues*

 

A+ good. That was the most eloquently said sentiment that I have read in a very long time. I couldn't even imagine trying to express something like that in anything but my native language too. Well done.

[Ampers&nd]

This topic has been really interesting to read, and the fact that it exists at all is pretty impressive, on the topic or whether or not a games characters can influence its player base, it reminds me of back in my GW days and one of my players,Mo.

Mo was a young Muslim kid who turned up one day out of the blue, played a game of 40k and loved it, bought a starter set and became a regular on the local scene. Now Mo worked hard, REALLY hard, after school every day bar Thursday he had temple, he went to a special school every Saturday and Sunday and on top of that his parents had signed him up for early A levels that he had to study for, he had one night off a week and he spent that every Thursday mashing his models into every game he could arrange. And painting swears in aramic onto his tanks.

He was a lovely kid, a popular in both his school and the store, so every so often one or more of his mates would come along and see what he was always jabbering on about, they would play an intro game, love and then look for an army, and eventually there would would always be a point where they would ask- "where are the people that represent me?"

And we had nothing. Closest match was undead Egyptians. Or they could mail order horrifically expensive metals from 10 years ago. But in the shop, right there and then, not one model that these kids could put on the table and see themselves. You could physically see the keen leaving these kids, and they would drift away, only Mo sticking around as usual.

These kids loved the game so far, they wanted to play more and one of their mates was already a fanatic, but without that final touch of seeing themselves on the table, we couldn't seal the deal.

When I see people on these forums asking for more models of type (x), or body type (y) I think of those Muslim kids and agree that if you can be a little more diverse, why wouldn't you be? Now Malifaux does pretty good in my opinion, and I love that, but more diversity is always going to be better isn't it;)

TL:DR If I had sidir 10 years ago I'd have hit a lot more sales targets;)

[DeleteAccount]

I would like to point out how seeing an employee of a company potentially minimizing the experience of a populace becomes disheartening to potential new consumers.  When one woman speaks up about her experiences throughout gaming culture and has stats to back up her experiences, you shouldn't counter with "well I know a girl/woman who didn't have that experience."  It's a classic statistics vs. anecdotal evidence issue.  I don't mean to bring up a sore spot for some, but GamerGate did happen, and women in gaming communities have been harassed to the point of never wanting to touch games again.

I do agree with this, and I´m sorry if it seems like I´m downplaying the problem. No I am not, yes I know there are issues, but I just don´t see them in my environment, what I see is awkward nerds who are outright frozen in fear when interacting with women, I haven´t seen them act like cornered animals whose reaction is to go all gung ho to assert their "dominance over their fear of the woman" which is what I´m getting is the gist of the other communities (if not outright disdain for them). Thing is, the whole feminist movement is hitting some very heavy strides in Spain, it´s been doing it for a while. My society is very polarized about the whole thing and is very politically charged, but the global "intent" is still moving to compensate the disparate (some changes with more success than others...), but the crux of things, is we are more conscious about that now than ever (sadly this also makes people behave like assholes more than ever in some sectors). So what I´m saying isn´t "your data is wrong", what I´m saying is that the blatantly inappropriate interactions may steem from a core cultural level and social level, I mean, the same way I don´t really expect any mistreatment around Spain outside of very awkward silence and sweating, I could expect some much nastier stuff in other countries.

 

In Spain we are also a LOT more liberal about matters related to sex than in he USA for example, that is another thing that I feel might be another thing to analyze.

 

As for the Privilege discussion from Dirial, yes, I agree that the privileged one has to lend a hand (which is different from self loathing, I´m quite tired of white guilt), but the reality is you can´t really expect the privileged to man up since that is the comfort zone, it´s nice and cozy and won´t really change without some external stimuli, simply because it´s nicer and comfier that way. Basically, a shift won´t happen because big Bobby one day woke up and discovers he´s been behaving like a twat for the last couple of years, it will come when something makes him realize that, and sadly that tends to come from the side looking for the change. And it´s not just that, it has to get big Bobby to understand while using pretty soft interactions, because if you go full hostile (saving some distances obviously, bad touch or degradation DEMANDS full hostility), he will become hostile himself and privilege and group dynamics will do the rest.

 

Moral of the story, it´s hard to change people, specially when they belong to the group on top of the totem pole and they have a group constantly validating their actions, no matter how hurtful they may be for others.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Behaving like a what? I realize that it is just an expression you didn't give much thought to, but just mentioning the use of that word as derogatory term is somewhat interesting, especially considering the thread this is in.

 

Carry on.

[Math Mathonwy]

As nathan has said the representation ratio male/female is fairly realistic bearing in mind as much as it's a fantasy game it's still based on a place being invaded by people from earth.

Why is it so important to retain historical accuracy in the gender divide when it isn't important to retain it in whether magic exists or not? Or whether electric bass guitars exist on the battle field as valid weapons? Or whether drunk green midget hillbillies can kill a giant demon with a wooden spoon?

 

Body types was again touched upon with ronda rousey the female ufc champ being highlighted! For me even watching the tennis at the moment serena williams has a bit of beef on her most others share a very similar body shape slim athletic sometimes very tall like sharapova. Going back steffi graf, martina navratilova, martina hingis, anna kournikova etc were not carrying any excess baggage.

Not all Malifaux males look like Urijah Faber or Dominick Cruz. Nor like Andy Murray or Roger Federer.

Here's an olympic gold medallist in hammer throw:

http://www.jazzmess.com/test/olympicathlete.jpg

How many Malifaux women look like her?

 

I'm not particularly worried about what sex my models are or if they are particularly buxom but i think the ratio is bang on and i like the game as it is and i have seen no convincing arguments why it needs to change!

So would your enjoyment of Malifaux been lessened if one of the two male Torakage had been a woman? Or if Angel Eyes had had a shirt? Because that's essentially what this boils down to. That's what you're fighting against.

[DeleteAccount]

Behaving like a what? I realize that it is just an expression you didn't give much thought to, but just mentioning the use of that word as derogatory term is somewhat interesting, especially considering the thread this is in.

 

Carry on.

OK, I just have to do the confused puppy stare, I´m new to the UK so I´m obviously still missing stuff, but isn´t behaving like a twat mean something like behaving like a dumbass or am I misusing it's meaning horribly and should prepare an apology?

[edonil]

It is correct, but the origin is a derogatory term for part of the female body.

[Fetid Strumpet]

That word is vulgar english for a woman's reproductive organs.

[DeleteAccount]

HA! fun, OK, lets go with knobs. Knobs is legit right?

[Da Git]

Nope, you've used it spot on there mate!  Probably best not used on the forums though!  I wouldn't be surprised at all hearing on the streets of Australia, NZ or the UK though... some of our brothers across the pond might take offense though as it's basically another word for the C-bomb... (again, have heard that plenty of times in the aforementioned countries).

 

I feel really sorry for Ferossa, sounds like your gaming group really sucks!  No one should have to put up with that.  I was lucky enough to have a really welcoming group in Australia (we only had a few females, but they were very welcome & some were very talented players).  In Japan, I'm lucky enough for there to be a 40k group...

 

As a privileged, white guy (albeit, living in Japan being discriminated against on a daily basis!), I really wouldn't care and would actually approve of all minion boxes having at least 1 female alternative.  I was also a little disappointed that Ironsides wasn't the big, beefy boxer I imagined pooing myself to if she sneezed in my direction.  If the artwork that we've seen turns out to be Dashel or the guild captain, I'll be happy (don't play Guild though!).  I think there deffinately could be some more different body types without flooding it.

 

From my point of view though, WHY ARE THERE NO AUSTRALIANS!!!  Racist Jerks!

 

I've also decided to paint my Colette crew black... hope I can pull it off!

[r4st4f4n]

OK, I just have to do the confused puppy stare, I´m new to the UK so I´m obviously still missing stuff, but isn´t behaving like a twat mean something like behaving like a dumbass or am I misusing it's meaning horribly and should prepare an apology?

Matt Taylor apologizes Shirt

Benedict Cumberbatch apologizes "colored"

Kaley Cuoco apologizes she's not a feminist

 

You know, you should be prepared to apologize from the start, it's just a matter of time!

 

That's up for another interesting branch of the question, in which words are made taboo because speakers use them in negative ways. Words are blameless, bad people give words bad meanings. Words are eventually made taboo to keep alive the fear related to them (Voldemort), and let bad people keep using them in more and more offensive ways, the more taboo they become.

Wasn't "Nerd" an insult? Why isn't it an insult anymore, and nerds are proud users of this word? Isn't it because of its continuos use and refusing to receive it as an insult? Now people have no way to insult a Nerd, specifically referring to his attitudes, because that term lost all of its offensive power. You can use "Loser" or something else, but the term is rather generic, and doesn't specifically picture a Nerd and his characteristics, as much as "Nerd" does. And if people started admitting they all have been losers, they all have lost, sooner or later in their lives, "Loser" too would not be usable as an insult anymore.

Does it make sense I have to remember which one between 24 different ways of calling inhabitants of Asia, is elected by people to be insulting (when for us they are all non-offensive derivatives of indo-european words) (and I actually don't remember it!)?

IMO fear of words keeps feeding their negative power. From the anecdotes in this thread and this kind of news, looks like in some places equality and respect originate when strict rules allow so, rather than from common sense :/