Marcus alpha's

[AoS]

Hi, we had a problem a day ago with Marcus:

 

- Marcus alpha Cojo.

- Cojo attack the widow weaver but fails the horror duel.

 

-Some of us would say that Cojo should just stop the activation because he get paralyzed during his activation.

 

-Others think that as alpha says: "this activation does not count as the target's activation", he would get paralyzed.

 

What is the correct point of view?

 

My point: Cojo activates controlled by Marcus as a normal activation for Cojo, but he still have his activation for the turn. And that don't mean this is not the Cojo's activation.

 

 

Thank for the answers mates

[Dirial]

I agree with your interpretation and reasoning.

[zFiend]

I agree.

[dgraz]

Agreed. It is still an Activation.

[Sezar]

Rule's Manual, pg.55. Performing a Horror Duel:

 

Note that models that gain the Paralyzed Condition during their Activation inmediately end their Activation (see pg. 62).

 

Marcus's card:

 

(2) Alpha: Target Beast activates inmediately after this model's Activation ends. This model controls the target during this Activation. This Activation does not count as the target's Activation this Turn, but does count as a Chain Activation for this model's Crew.

 

underlining mine.

 

The Activation done by Alpha does not count as the activation of that model, it is not ITS activation. So, while that model would gain the Paralyzed Condition after failing the Horror Duel, that Activation would not inmediately end; the model would still perform his Actions as Marcus's player wanted, even while the model would be paralyzed now, in the same way as a Paralyzed model can still perform an Action thanks to an Obey, p.e.

 

Cojo would not lose that Alpha Activation, but its next own Activation as it would be Paralyzed.

 

The same reasoning that forbids Marcus to auto sacrifize Colette via Cassandra, because it is not Colette's Activation while she is Alpha'ed, would work this way, in my opinion.

[dgraz]

Rule's Manual, pg.55. Performing a Horror Duel:

 

Marcus's card:

 

underlining mine.

 

The Activation done by Alpha does not count as the activation of that model, it is not ITS activation. So, while that model would gain the Paralyzed Condition after failing the Horror Duel, that Activation would not inmediately end; the model would still perform his Actions as Marcus's player wanted, even while the model would be paralyzed now, in the same way as a Paralyzed model can still perform an Action thanks to an Obey, p.e.

 

Cojo would not lose that Alpha Activation, but its next own Activation as it would be Paralyzed.

I usually don't buy in to this kind of "rules lawyering", but you present an interesting case here. Only because of the phrase 'their activation' in the rule for Horror. I could see room for discussion here, may need an official word. I still think I'd play it as the activation would end.....it is still an activation....but I can see your side.

 

The same reasoning that forbids Marcus to auto sacrifize Colette via Cassandra, because it is not Colette's Activation while she is Alpha'ed, would work this way, in my opinion.

Wait....what? What are we talking about here?

[AoS]

Ye, Marcus can control Colette and "Prompt" a model triggering the "final act" trigger, (Once per Turn after succeeding during this model's Activation), then this model must be sacrificed at the end of the turn. You can do it controlling Colette. If you control Cassandra instead of Colette you can't activate this trigger with the "Understudy" action because this won't be the Colette's activation.

 

You can also control Colette "Prompt" Cassandra and do the "Understudy" action using the Colette's "Prompt" on the Colette model in the Colette's activation and then you can use the trigger to sacrifice Colette at the end of the turn.

 

But I think when you "Prompt" a model wouldn't be Marcus controlling the action causing by "Prompt", because when you "Prompt" a model is the model "Promted" who choose the action. So you can't sacrifice Colette in that way. But you still can Controlling Colette and sacrifacing anything. 

 

 

But I think the same as before: When Marcus control Colette it is a Colette's activation so she still can activate the trigger.

[Sezar]

For the record, I was the playing facing Marcus and his Cojo, and Cojo activating would have been far more dangerous to me than it losing that Feral activation, and I was pointing it would not, but rather be paralyzed and lose its next, but the Marcus player believed Cojo would just end that activation, and for the sake of not losing much time arguing about it, and because it was the easier and most suddenly reasonable answer, then we just played like it and kept playing, but I just wanted to know how would be the most correct way to play it in the future, might it ever happen again!

[dgraz]

I'm wavering a little. The wording makes it a little weird. Final Act says 'during this model's Activation'....and Alpha says 'doesn't count as this model's activation'. I believe the Alpha line is only there because it isn't exactly Reactivate but they didn't want the ability to use up the model's Activation. In my gut, 'this model' is still activating so it's still 'during this model's activation'.

 

So, to me I still think it's as originally stated, that if Cojo failed Horror during Alpha, he would still end that Activation and still have his normal one later.

Which also would mean (which I somehow never recognized before) that Marcus could indeed Alpha Colette to Prompt someone and hit the Final Act trigger.

 

 

This part however doesn't seem right to me:

 

Ye, Marcus can control Colette and "Prompt" a model triggering the "final act" trigger, (Once per Turn after succeeding during this model's Activation), then this model must be sacrificed at the end of the turn. You can do it controlling Colette. If you control Cassandra instead of Colette you can't activate this trigger with the "Understudy" action because this won't be the Colette's activation.

 

Is there a previous ruling that states Cassandra can't Prompt Colette and hit the Trigger? (I don't play against Colette much)

 

Prompt does not reference Colette by name, so if Cassandra uses Prompt, she is using that ability as if she has it so she IS 'this model'. So Cassandra could indeed Prompt Colette and hit the Final Act Trigger.

 

If there is a ruling that she can't, then ignore me

[AoS]

1. Target Beast activates inmediately after this model's Activation ends.

 

2. This model controls the target during this Activation

 

3. This Activation does not count as the target's Activation this Turn

 

4. does count as a Chain Activation for this model's Crew

 

 

When Marcus alpha's Cojo. Cojo will activate, and Marcus will control the Cojo's activation. Till this, is just a model activation.

 

What means "This Activation does not count as the target's Activation this Turn"? 

If we don't read this line Marcus would activate Cojo and he would not activate anymore in the turn because he only have one activation. If alpha says  "This Activation does not count as the target's Activation this Turn" it means he is not consuming his only activation. But this is still an activation, this is still a Cojo's activation but it is not the Cojo's activation that he have for this turn.

This is my point.

 

 

If this was just saying "This Activation does not count as the target's Activation" I could even understand the misunderstood, but I see this pretty clear.

maybe this should be redacted like: "This Activation does not count as the activation that the target has for this turn."

 

 

I think Cassandra can't activate the "Prompt" trigger because the trigger says: "in this model activation", so you only can activate this trigger in the Colette activation. I would say Cassandra can't because the action still belong to Colette, and it's not copied. But maybe I'm wrong.

[AoS]

Anyway, with Cojo I'm sure he would stopped his activation and not paralyzed, and with Colette maybe I could need a clarification.

[bertmac]

I'd play it as the current activation ends. Otherwise alpha'ing an opponent becomes even better and basically bypasses horror as a defence mechanism. Attack a terrifying opponent fail the horror duel on purpose the marcus player still gets to use the attacks but the owner has a paralyzed model.

[Adran]

I would play it as Cojos activation ends, and the paralysed is removed, as per normal. The Model is activating and if I would expect start of activation and end of activation things to happen as normal. If I Alpha'd a model with Regenerate, I would expect it to heal during the Alpha activatuon, and so forth.

[Therril_83]

What means "This Activation does not count as the target's Activation this Turn"? 

If we don't read this line Marcus would activate Cojo and he would not activate anymore in the turn because he only have one activation. If alpha says  "This Activation does not count as the target's Activation this Turn" it means he is not consuming his only activation. But this is still an activation, this is still a Cojo's activation but it is not the Cojo's activation that he have for this turn.

This is my point.

 

 

If this was just saying "This Activation does not count as the target's Activation" I could even understand the misunderstood, but I see this pretty clear.

maybe this should be redacted like: "This Activation does not count as the activation that the target has for this turn."

This.

I always thought it was pretty clear that the intent was only to give the model a sort of pseudo reactivate+companion, but it's still the models own activation and all that*. 

But since this thread is even alive makes it apparent that it's not as clear as I thought.. 

 

*(although I don't like the wording of "this model controls the target..", it should be "this models controller controls..". Same issue as with the On Wings of Darkness-upgrade, models don't control models or draw cards, players controls models and draw cards.)

[paradoxstorm]

This.

I always thought it was pretty clear that the intent was only to give the model a sort of pseudo reactivate+companion, but it's still the models own activation and all that*. 

But since this thread is even alive makes it apparent that it's not as clear as I thought.. 

 

 

The problem inherent in complex rule sets is that it is surprisingly easy to create rules with a particular intent using language that is open to, and is often more consistent with, unintended interpretations.

 

I don't blame anyone for this, it is an inherently challenging task and one  at which humans are doomed to fall short.  The only thing to be done is identify the issues and ask the ruling authorities for an appropriate ruling/action.  

 

I don't have an opinion on this particular discussion beyond wanting the question resolved so that when I start playing Marcus (soon, I hope)  I am able to play such things correctly--whatever "correctly" means in this case.  

[MrDeathTrout]

You can argue you don't like the way it works, or that it is not what was intended, but I don't see any wiggle room here.  Horror says during their activation, alpha says this is NOT their activation, so RAW they gain paralyzed and complete the alpaha action.  Can anyone point to a rule that contradicts this?  I agree it makes more sense that they lose the rest of the alpha activation, but that is a feeling not a rule.

[AoS]

You can argue you don't like the way it works, or that it is not what was intended, but I don't see any wiggle room here.  Horror says during their activation, alpha says this is NOT their activation, so RAW they gain paralyzed and complete the alpaha action.  Can anyone point to a rule that contradicts this?  I agree it makes more sense that they lose the rest of the alpha activation, but that is a feeling not a rule.

 

 

"This activation does not count as the target's activation this turn, but does count as a Chain activation for this model's Crew".

 

Mate, you can't just take a few words from alpha and say there is no rule to contradict it. alpha also says: "Target beast activates immediately" Which means that this is an activation from that beast.

 

Maybe we are again in what is the correct reading of "This activation does not count as the target's activation this turn".

 

Anyway, just curiosity, if you take the interpretation that this is not a Cojo activation. How do you interpretate the complete sentence? I don't really know what's the meaning of "this turn" in the sentence, saying "This activation does not count as the target's activation" would be enough, right?

 

Would be nice an oficial clarification.

[Rob Lo]

Just because it doesn't count as Cojo's activation for the turn doesn't mean you didn't have to nominate a model (Cojo) to activate as a counts-as-Chain Activation,  Alpha explicitly says Marcus' activation is ended before there can be any actions from Cojo, so we know we don't attach these actions to his activation. When one model's activation is over, what do you do? Normally you pass to other player but if you've got a chain activation, you nominate your chain and perform an activation with them. If you fail a horror duel during an activation, you do what you always do, end that activation.

 

When that is over, Alpha says that whatever happened then didn't count as Cojo's activation for that turn, so he still gets his normal activation at some point later in the turn.

 

I can't see any way to read it beyond that without way too much stretching. In my head it's "this activation does not count as the target's normal activation", because, plain english, that's the obvious go-to meaning. 

[MrDeathTrout]

 

 

 

"This activation does not count as the target's activation this turn, but does count as a Chain activation for this model's Crew".

 

Mate, you can't just take a few words from alpha and say there is no rule to contradict it. alpha also says: "Target beast activates immediately" Which means that this is an activation from that beast.

 

Maybe we are again in what is the correct reading of "This activation does not count as the target's activation this turn".

 

Anyway, just curiosity, if you take the interpretation that this is not a Cojo activation. How do you interpretate the complete sentence? I don't really know what's the meaning of "this turn" in the sentence, saying "This activation does not count as the target's activation" would be enough, right?

 

Would be nice an oficial clarification.

 

 

 

I agree, if you want some help resolving a sticky rule situation you need to post the exact words from the entire rule.  Sezar already did that in this thread so I didn't repeat the whole thing and simply restate the parts I think are pertinent to this debate.

 

I also agree that when Alpha is used it is an activation from that beast, but alpha specifically states "This Activation does not count as the target's Activation this Turn".  The intent of this rule is obviously to make it clear that Alpha does not "consume" the models Activation for the turn.  When Horror refers to "their activation" is clearly meant to end an activation while in progress. I still think a literal interpretation of the rules means Alpha activation is not "their" Activation, but in typing this response I see your point more clearly.  I was over zealous saying their was no rule to contradict my interpretation.  I apologize for that.