zFiend Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 So what is the spot that is still left for guild ? Or what can we do better than gremlins ? Well you could put an end to all that shooting once and for all and take Perdita, put the Francisco buff on her, take a Guardian put her on :+fate and take Finger on the trigger among their midst. Try shooting/charging/actually hitting a df 9 wp 9 Perdita who shoots first with sh6. But no, of course you will not win with Criticial Strike vs Dumb Luck if you only look at those. But Guild has some seriously good and accurate shooters. Perdita and Sonnia. Also Guild has Sonnia, seriously, take a Malifaux Child with her and build up those walls. 4 Flame Walls which block everything seriously make some sad Gremlins should they break that, well Sonnia has Ca 9 so that is fairly accurate. Austringers, double up, Sh7 from behind those walls from complete safety. Guild does shoot. Guild shoots well and accurate. Gremlins do insane amounts of damage should they get to it, but it's not like it's impossible for the Guild to take down Lenny etc linchpins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meliondor Posted June 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 DF 9 Perdita does not work for long, since Franc will die first. Like always. This is how you counter here. Against most opponent this works, because they can't kill Franc with ranged attacks. But Gremlins can, wow again gremlins (and only gremlins) counter this tactic. Sonnia with flamewalls does not work, because the Pigapult can kill her easily, even out of LoS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 If you are that afraid of Franc getting lost, then stick him in a Pinebox to keep the buff up and hide the Death Marshal Also it's not a case of "wow again gremlins and only gremlins" counter Francisco tactic. What? No. Sonnia shouldn't die that easily really. With SS use, Brutal Effigy buff Sonnia shouldn't go down that easy, also you can use her Quick Study to up her df by +2 and take Franc should you so wish to give her +2 df again. You can also double up on Austringers and attack the Pigapult as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TychoTerziev Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Meliondor, it seems that you have made your mind. I doubt that anything said can persuade you otherwise. It seems that you have started this thread seeking confirmation of your bias. So why not sticking to the options you mentioned? The solution is simple- if you are adamant that Guild is subpar, get Gremlins instead. And if you think that Malifaux is a horrible broken mess, start WMH. It might fit your competitive mindset more. But if you do, be sure to get Legion of Everblight or Cryx- the other factions ( still ) pale in comparison. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Of course this game relies a lot on skill as well. In our meta, I can say fairly confidently should we really start playing gloves off games with full on force, my whole meta could start playing Gremlins with the utmost filthiest tricks around and our local Guild player would still remain unbeatable. So there's that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meliondor Posted June 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 But if you do, be sure to get Legion of Everblight or Cryx- the other factions ( still ) pale in comparison. Oh, I did. I have nearly all cryx. But you are not up to date. The current top lists are from cygnar and circle (but cryx, Khador, legion, PoM, eöves and Skorne also have their top lists that come close and allow fair games) To your ideas: sonnia with defense 8 und cast value 7... I do not believe this will win. The rest is also convincing. I will try to come up with something in guild, that gremlins can not copy or do even better and see if it works. But up to now I think we will get lots of cool stuff with the next wave (at least if the designers understand what they did with gremlins to guild). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McAirHwhip Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Gremlins can't stand alone. By that I mean they have few models that can play lone wolf. I've seen a lone rifle man or pathfinder completely shut down one side of a board with zero backup. These models tend to shoot things with guns and they're cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 sonnia with defense 8 und cast value 7... I do not believe this will win. Of course it will not win. This game isn't about killing the master or keeping the master alive, it's about attrition. Present a threat that must be dealt with or it will wreak havoc upon should they choose not to react to it. They will spend AP and effort in dealing with Sonnia while you go about your schemes and try to deny them schemes. Does a Defense 8 Sonnia last long enough against the Gremlins sh4-6 or ml3-6 to achieve your schemes while presenting a threat? I believe so. Is Ca 7 enough to pick point the weakest defense target to Blast off from, I believe so. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Also to add to that. If there was such a thing that I could tell you right now, how to guaranteed win games (against Gremlins or not) I'd absolutely hate it and this game would not be in the balance you so much speak of. The fact that I seriously can't tell you a thing that will guaranteed win you games is a sign that it is pretty much in a good spot in my mind. Another thing of note. Gremlins tend to do this, make the outburst you are experiencing right now. That they are ridiculously overpowered when you start flat out comparing. What I suggest is that you request a crew swap. Play with the crew you utterly hate and see what you are vary of in the table, what models you feel like you can't lose or it'll cripple your game style. What you can and can't do. Then you take that information you've gathered and you do exactly those things when you see it on the table. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Have you tried the Whiskey Golem in a game? Because that Flurry means that it won't have the Defense 7. Charging means that it won't have Defense 7. Its damage output is nowhere near Peacekeeper. It's synergy in the Faction is minimal unlike Peacekeeper's. And, finally, with the Angry Drunk upgrade (no Flurry otherwise) it's more expensive than the Peacekeeper. All in all, many Gremlin players consider the Whiskey Golem somewhat subpar. Did you also learn that the 6SS Bayou Bushwhacker takes two damage from the ability and they have 6 Wounds? And that their weak Damage is 1 on their Sh 6 gun? 3 Actions that do two damage to them while they have four Wd? I mean, yeah, Bayou Gremlins are a lot better than Guild Hounds (outside of McCabe crews) but it isn't as if they have three Actions very often in games. I've used them a lot and have took three Actions out of them maybe 20% of the time or something. It seems that you are looking at ideal situations without taking into account the cost that Gremlins pay for those abilities. And healing isn't everywhere and Slop Haulers aren't all that fast when they heal nor are they very durable. And otherwise the Gremlin healing is pretty limited. never seen a whiskey golem with df7 or flurry as they seem to do well without it. peacekeeper damage output is 3/4/6 although with built in ram for 4/5/7 vs 3/5/6 of the whiskey golem so its hardly nowhere near. one damage different. yes you coud say triggers but then the peacekeeper gets +1 where as whiskey gets +2 over 2 turns. peacekeeper is likely to only get one hit on whiskey golem due to sprung a leak or burning cards (needing 10+) whiskey golem needs 7+ to get the charge. whiskey golem can charge 1st turn through being gremlin lured across the field by trixie (and who doesnt take her in gremlins?) whiskey golem often works under wong, which means it ignores armour, regens itself and gets a damage track on par with the peacekeeper for effectively the same points (ooh glowy for 1pt). the gremlins also have a nice bubble of doom where they take one less damage (because of lenny) auto get their dumb luck trigger and are healed by slop haulers, all whilst being immune to blasts (thanks merris) and going 1st (thanks trixiebelle) so their 3pt bayou gremlins get to go reckless alot more than you would think. our local gremlin player certainly has more success with these than he does with his guild as they are easier to use, easier to get schemes with (so much reckless) and outdamage the guild whilst generally outnumbering them as well depending on which way he plays them (somers summoning factory gunline) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Well then, why don't you play gremlins and be happy... Im sad seeing you so miserable with guild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meliondor Posted June 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 . What I suggest is that you request a crew swap. Play with the crew you utterly hate and see what you are vary of in the table, what models you feel like you can't lose or it'll cripple your game style. What you can and can't do. Then you take that information you've gathered and you do exactly those things when you see it on the table. Oh done already. Actually with all the factions. Swap crew or lend a crew and play it for 1-2 games. There are masters I like (Perdita, Lilith, Nicodem, Rasputina...), but nothing that felt as dumb as gremlins. I did not like their game style...taking damage all the time, trying to keep up with the healing and playing without opponent half the time (you activate so much more than him, damage your model, place markers and run around, then run around and heal your models...all this without interaction from your opponent). And in the end you have no single model you move that is good. You have "bubbles", because no gremlin can be alone. With guild you put a pathfinder somewhere up the front (where you want him to be), let him Focus, shoot, place markers with the help of an austringer. You can put a rifleman on a roof and let him shoot stuff and he does damage with himself. Gremlins alone are not dangerous, but with build in ram, free armor, healing support (to abuse reckleess) you get some crazy stuff together and can still do schemes. Gremlins are not the most fun for me (I prefer small numbers and models that can do stuff on their own), but I think they are by far the strongest faction at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Okay I'm done here. Good luck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 never seen a whiskey golem with df7 or flurry as they seem to do well without it.I'm a bit surprised you've never seen one with Df 7 since it's a built-in (1)Action but still, that was kinda my point that Meliondor's analysis didn't seem like something borne out of actual play experience.peacekeeper damage output is 3/4/6 although with built in ram for 4/5/7 vs 3/5/6 of the whiskey golem so its hardly nowhere near. one damage different. yes you coud say triggers but then the peacekeeper gets +1 where as whiskey gets +2 over 2 turns.You forgot that getting another Ram means a 5/6/8 damage track. But really, all I know is that I'm a lot more worried about a Peacekeeper starting down at me from across the table than I am of a Whiskey Golem.whiskey golem can charge 1st turn through being gremlin lured across the field by trixie (and who doesnt take her in gremlins?)whiskey golem often works under wong, which means it ignores armour, regens itself and gets a damage track on par with the peacekeeper for effectively the same points (ooh glowy for 1pt).Peacekeeper OTOH is often found with Hoffman - do you want me to list what stuff it gets from him? Because it's a bit impressive to say the least Seriously, Whiskey Golem's synergy with Gremlins utterly pales in comparison. the gremlins also have a nice bubble of doom where they take one less damage (because of lenny) auto get their dumb luck trigger and are healed by slop haulers, all whilst being immune to blasts (thanks merris) and going 1st (thanks trixiebelle) so their 3pt bayou gremlins get to go reckless alot more than you would think.Try swapping Lenny for a Candy with Fears Given Form using Lilith. Hilarity ensues! I mean, as long as we're trading these sorts of scenarios. our local gremlin player certainly has more success with these than he does with his guild as they are easier to use, easier to get schemes with (so much reckless) and outdamage the guild whilst generally outnumbering them as well depending on which way he plays them (somers summoning factory gunline)Supported by a Glowy Whiskey Golem? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meliondor Posted June 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Just because whiskey golem is 1 vs 1 stronger than a Whiskey golem does mean, that the golem is actually good for gremlins, since they can take better stuff for that many points :-). Oh and peacekeeper offers more than just melee killing power and resilence thank to his drag and the marker removal. I would prefer the pigapult as control piece over a whiskey golem anytime and both are similar expensive (and so expensive that you will not take them both normally). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 somers gunline factory doesnt bring whiskey golem. i did mention your ram, but thats versus whiskey poison so basically both the same (although unlikely to hit whiskey more than once). I know what he gets with hoffman, however I (and our gremlin player) like to run johan, and he can remove the hoffman power loop, nobody can remove ooh glowy. also the power loop by itself doesn't add anything until you add in yet more points of constructs to support it so we both increase points there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 somers gunline factory doesnt bring whiskey golem. i did mention your ram, but thats versus whiskey poison so basically both the same (although unlikely to hit whiskey more than once). I know what he gets with hoffman, however I (and our gremlin player) like to run johan, and he can remove the hoffman power loop, nobody can remove ooh glowy. also the power loop by itself doesn't add anything until you add in yet more points of constructs to support it so we both increase points there If you think Hoffman only adds power loop, you haven't even read his card. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 i did mention your ram, but thats versus whiskey poison so basically both the same (although unlikely to hit whiskey more than once).You mentioned the baked in one, not the one available from a card. And damage over time is very much not the same as straight up damage. I know what he gets with hoffman, however I (and our gremlin player) like to run johan, and he can remove the hoffman power loop, nobody can remove ooh glowy. also the power loop by itself doesn't add anything until you add in yet more points of constructs to support it so we both increase points thereAs Myyrä notes, Hoffman gives way more than power loop.As for your Gremlin player, he seems to like running quite a few models, it seems - I mean, Trixie, Wong, Whiskey Golem, Merris, Slop Haulers, Johan, Lenny and enough Bayou Gremlins to outactivate anyone. As far as I can tell, his usual list looks something like this:Gremlins Crew - 50 - ScrapWong -- 4 Pool+Ooo Glowy [1]Bayou Gremlin [3]Johan [7]Lenny [9]Merris LaCroix [6]Slop Hauler [5]Trixiebelle [8]Whiskey Golem [10]That doesn't look very scary at all... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 I (and our gremlin player) like to run johan, and he can remove the hoffman power loop, As above but also..........yeah, he might get to do that once before he dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Stripping conditions from enemies with models that need a suit and can't stone for it (like Johan or Witchling Stalkers) is not very reliable in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 different lists depending on what he wants to do, wouldnt be a list like that as yes its not scary. if he wants a summoning factory then it wont have a whiskey golem. if he wants it beat face it may. and i did mention the one from a card in the same sentence I said about poison 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argentbadger Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 There is a lot of theory in this thread about 'best cases'; my experience is that things are often quite different on the table top. Malifaux almost certainly doesn't have perfect balance, therefore one faction must be ranked number 7. Maybe this 7th ranked faction is Guild. The question is: 'is this difference in power level sufficent to make a practical difference over a decent number of games?'. Speaking from my experience in the UK scene against some very strong players with all factions, I would say that the difference in power level is much less significant than the effect of player skill in determining the result of a game. @Meliondor - if you want to play Guild and have problems playing them against Gremlins, I recommend you take this to the Battle Reports forum and you may get some more specific advice from the friendly folks who frequent it. Math Mathonwy and Adran in particular give very insightful feedback on games which could help you to see options that aren't apparent during the game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meliondor Posted June 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 There is a lot of theory in this thread about 'best cases'; my experience is that things are often quite different on the table top. Malifaux almost certainly doesn't have perfect balance, therefore one faction must be ranked number 7. Maybe this 7th ranked faction is Guild. The question is: 'is this difference in power level sufficent to make a practical difference over a decent number of games?'. Speaking from my experience in the UK scene against some very strong players with all factions, I would say that the difference in power level is much less significant than the effect of player skill in determining the result of a game. @Meliondor - if you want to play Guild and have problems playing them against Gremlins, I recommend you take this to the Battle Reports forum and you may get some more specific advice from the friendly folks who frequent it. Math Mathonwy and Adran in particular give very insightful feedback on games which could help you to see options that aren't apparent during the game. Actually Malifaux has no faction ranking, but a master ranking. This master ranking has some rock, paper, scissor in it. And actually all factions have some top casters, so if you have everything of your faction you will always have one crew, that can do at least 50-50 against that was your opponent brings. Strong masters can do this on 80% of mission / opponents, really bad casters are always a bit weaker than an other master of the same faction would be on the same match up. So I would never say guild is ranked 7, I do fine with guild. On every mission (also if this sometimes means taking a watcher and a hunter or 4 guild hounds...what I do not like) and also against every opponent. And then come gremlins. Against other factions if my opponent brings stone and I bring scissor I have a problem. That is ok, because I could have taken stone for 50-50 or paper for an 70-30 win chance. But now with scissor I have only 30-70, what is still not a lost game. But gremlins can bring gremlin-scissor against guild-scissor and also be 70-30. If I bring stone against gremlin scissor (this means I can build an anti-list after I know exactly what my opponent brings) I can only reach 40-60 or perhaps 50-50. Other factions might not have this problem against gremlins, because playing against gremlins is just like playing against guild, but with more small models (not my idea, that sentence from a fellow arcanist player). But gremlins are just the better guild. It is not about the whiskey golem (that is not that great for gremlins) or just dumb luck triggers. It is the whole concept of shooty models, buffs, and movement tricks that made guild quite enjoyable, but that gremlins do better as a faction. I really needed some time to find stuff, that guild can do, that gremlins do not do better...and I think that is the real problem here. Gremlins came as new faction and while each faction had a certrain "role" with 1-2 master that break this role gremlins did just take over a place between ressers and guild. While ressers still have the advantage in summoning (while needing corpse markers most of the time), guild does NOT have a ranged advantage against gremlins. The number 1 ranged damage faction is now gremlins. Guild has to find a new reason to exist as faction and I do not see a role, that they can fit. Against other factions than gremlins this does not matter, because we still outshoot all of them and dominate the board. Against gremlins at least I will have to find a complete new of playing and I did not find any suggestions in this thread to do this. Just some learn to play and learn the weaknesses of gremlins ideas or just the idea "play gremlins yourself". This would solve my problem, but actually I do not like the playstyle of gremlins, even if I think it is superior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Is this really still going? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowfane Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Is this really still going? Yes, but only because these forums, as with any other ones, have a group of people who LIKE trying to argue with someone who has already made his mind up and doesn't want to listen to anyone's arguments. Its the forum equivalent of banging your head against a brick wall, ie some people are just forum masochists 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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