Collete and prompt

[Carcosa]

OH!!!

Justin, I do have one question.

What is the benchmark of peon/minion/enforcer/henchman for this experiment, or should that too be based on faction?

[Adran]

Trap Doors might be situational, but broken in those situations. I am referring to that Colette (or Cassandra, doesn't even take up a upgrade slot for the master...) can send an insignificant peon, that is the Doves (who she can summon), up to 20" a turn (they are flying so terrain will not be an obstacle), then Cas or Col will activate, have the Dove place a marker (for breakthrough, power ritual, plant evidence, A Line in the Sand, Protect territory). This is very, very, very, hard to stop, even if you know its coming, for a number of reasons.

 

I have problems with Prompt too, but Trap Doors is just over the top for me.

 

 

Any Arcanist master can use trap doors, as they can all hire Cassandra.

 

I'll grant you that Colette will probably make more use of the Scheme markers, but Cassandra and a Malifaux Raptor is pretty awesome at scheme dropping for any Arcanist. (And I now want to make use of Wings of Fire along side this for the ultimate marker dropping peon, Union miner happily puts the marker out and sets fire to the raptor, raptor flies 16" drops a marker by removing flame, and CAssandra goes and removes one of the Union Miners markers to put another one by the Raptor. and then I can start using from above to get teh raptor anywhere I want every turn).

 

Does Colette abuse it more than that?

 

Likeswise I'll happily use Performers and Manniquins with any arcanist master, but I'm like that

,

[Patzer]

Maybe slightly since she can summon the Doves and doesn't need to invest in the Raptors. Even with Cassandra and a Raptor it is still broken in my book.

[Breng77]

Trap Doors might be situational, but broken in those situations. I am referring to that Colette (or Cassandra, doesn't even take up a upgrade slot for the master...) can send an insignificant peon, that is the Doves (who she can summon), up to 20" a turn (they are flying so terrain will not be an obstacle), then Cas or Col will activate, have the Dove place a marker (for breakthrough, power ritual, plant evidence, A Line in the Sand, Protect territory). This is very, very, very, hard to stop, even if you know its coming, for a number of reasons.

 

I have problems with Prompt too, but Trap Doors is just over the top for me.

 

But trap doors (the Practiced Production upgrade) is not specific to Colette, either Cassandra or Angelica can take it.  As such it does not in anyway make her any more OP than any other Arcanist.  As any arcanist crew could include this upgrade.  I agree it is very powerful, but it is every bit as powerful in say a Marcus Crew or Ramos Crew if you bring Cassandra along,  The only difference being that Colette can drop scheme markers for no AP that can be picked up at the end of turn.  Sure Doves are a great target for this ability, but Malifaux raptors are even better, and any scheme runner works just fine (and minions etc are better for things like Protect territory, as doves cannot hold the protect markers.)

 

Edit: Apparently I should have read further as this was covered, that said, unless you don't want Cassie or Angelica, the cost difference between a summoning a Dove and a Raptor is 1 SS.  But you need to give up a master upgrade slot and Colette's Ap for a Dove.  Raptors also tend to have way more utility in many strategies than doves do.

[Breng77]

This is exactly what I'm thinking and no way in hell can that be considered a weakness.. Relatively average, if that's the worst that can be said of Colette, hot damn.

 Reconnoiter, Interference, Turf War, Guard the Stash, Extraction, Squatters Rights.  She is not bad at any of these, but nor would I put her at the top of the power curve for them either.  For Reconnoiter and Interference she is solidly below almost any summoning master, and I find it similar for most schemes requiring board control as her model count tends not to be very high.

 

I would also argue that Relatively Average in some strategies would be the description of any of the top level masters at their worst.  For example I almost never would take her in Reconnoiter or Interference, finding Ramos to be a much better choice.  Now in say Head Hunter I find her to be way over the top end of the curve in power.

 

I'm hardly saying she is average or bad, just in the same League as Ramos, Levi, Dreamer, etc when it comes to power level.

[zFiend]

Reconnoiter and interference I'll give you but seriously every master in the game pales in comparison to Dreamer, Nico and Ramos.

Turf war seriously? Prompt makes that game utterly hellish for the opponent. As you can just hold your heavy beater back until the enemy is already in there and then poof. They're gone. Seriously you're not getting turf war. You try to remove Colette from there, nope, not happening.

Guard the stash. Nope. Read turf war.

[Breng77]

The problem is against Crews that out activate you.  So you must commit your heavy hitter before they do.  Sure you might kill some models, but against say a summoning crew...they just replace them after hitting your big hitter with theirs.   Or for instance Vs say Ramos, you kill the spiders holding down the turf war area, Ramos activates and they are back again.  I also think Dreamer with Widow weaver webbing down the center is better at turf war than Colette, same with say Molly summoning right into the turf war circle.

 

Removing Colette from the circle is also not that difficult.  You don't need her dead to remove her from the scoring area.  Late turn pushes do just fine.

 

 

  I'm also not saying she is bad at it, just not way better than most other masters, and not at the top of the power curve. as I find turf war to be one that both people score on a regular basis, but i find the ability to activate last to be a huge advantage in turf war, and if Colette is bringing a bunch of heavy hitters, she usually lacks activation control and so must commit first.

[Justin]

OH!!!

Justin, I do have one question.

What is the benchmark of peon/minion/enforcer/henchman for this experiment, or should that too be based on faction?

 

Compare what each Master has available to them, where appropriate.

[Whut]

I just want to put my own thoughts into this regarding the Hoffman comparison. Hoffman has a very similar action, machine puppet.

Yes it is restricted to constructs, but there is no lack of quality constructs available for any potential role Hoffman needs to fill. He can even have Howard, who is usually the Colette go-to. So very similar there.

Yes, Colette has a longer range. However, Hoffman gets free pushes when a construct near him moves, whereas Colette needs to hire a performer or use her own AP. And it's not like Rg6 is short by any means. Hoffman ties Colette if not wins in the range category because of his free pushes in my opinion.

These two actions both require a 6 of any suit. BUT Hoffman can get +2 CA from nearby constructs, and by looping a metal gamin can get a base CA of 8. This allows him to cast Machine Puppet on a 2. A TWO. Don't tell me 6s are too easy to cast on.

That is where the similarities end. On the one hand, Colette has an advantage due to her "free" pushes and general unkillable nature (which is less true if you can ignore Df triggers), as well as her fantastic Aura of zero interacts.

Hoffman has the advantage in other ways. He can support his crew WAY better in the long run by giving out nimble, armor, Df6, Wp6, Ml7, etc. And he never needs to walk and can give himself fast every turn at nearly no detriment to his crew (just ping the metal gamin for slow). He can blow up markers for damage, he can create rail golems who eat teddies for breakfast, and he himself is no slouch when it comes to taking a hit or two, especially with an Armor +2 construct nearby (oh look, metal gamin and Rail golem). And the icing I'd that his totem makes a bubble which is immune to blasts.

They are two different masters with different skillsets, and they share an action that is VERY similar, and of which I personally think Hoffman has the better one, though many will disagree. But no matter what your opinion is, there's no way one could say that the prompt is so much better that it takes Colette to a new power level by itself. That simply isn't true.

You could argue that Colette has access to December Acolytes which could be seen as overpowered with Prompt, but unless I missed it, no one has said that yet, so I doubt that's the reason people are saying prompt is over the top.

Edit: I neglected to mention the triggers on Prompt, being "draw a card" which is very nice bUT I wouldn't say broken, and giving out reactivate at the cost of sacrificing the model at the end of the turn, which I think is a fair tradeoff and not overpowered either. Yes it's abusable when Howard has 2 wounds left and will die anyway, but meh, it's not that bad.

[Jordon]

One of my favourite match ups (and also most difficult) with Colette is when I'm facing Lucius. I like to compare Colette to Lucius as it seems like he works counter to Colette but at the same time plays very similar. Colette is the scheme marker queen, while Lucius is the anti scheme marker king.

 

There are a ton of similarities between the two masters, often doing the same thing in different ways. 

 

Both masters have teleports. Lucius' is shorter ranged but nets you a scheme marker and repositions two models and has no restriction on the model being swapped. Whereas Colettes discards a scheme marker, only effects one minion/showgirl model but has the superior range. Personally I like Lucius' teleport better, but I've made some great plays using Colette's too.

 

Both masters also have (0) attack actions. Colettes is easier to pull off and is more accurate with a shorter range and Lucius is more difficult, less accurate but does more damage from further away, and also requiring an upgrade slot. I've seen both abilities do amazing things so I don't really value one over the other. 

 

Also both masters have soulstone manipulation. Colette can gain a free single suit every turn and easily gain additional stones through discarding cards and 1AP. Lucius doesn't get a free suit a turn, but can infinitely retain his stones as long as there are ablative wounds for him to utilize. Lucius has the advantage of using stones more flexibly but at a greater resource cost, whereas Colette has a more restrictive and limited use, but requiring no resources. Both great abilities. 

 

Both masters can be a pain to put down. Lucius can shrug off damage (albeit it's not very easy to pull off) with his upgrade trigger and red tape and highest authority can shut down models hard. Combine that with the fact that he has a decent stat line and pseudo infinite stones (dependant on surrounding Wds) and he can be extremely difficult to kill. Colette can shrug off damage easier and if that still doesn't work, she can sacrifice her ladies to stay alive. I think both models are in the upper tier of survivability, but I don't think i'm exaggerating by saying Colette is probably one of the most survivable masters in the game, but not unkillable. She really hates lure's and can be in real trouble versus opponents with many push/place effects (lilith, belles, obeys etc)

 

Lastly we have the mighty prompt versus issue command/commanding presence. There are many times where prompt is amazing and model X wrecks house or accomplishes a otherwise impossible scheme. Other times I look on at Lucius' flexibility with his commanding presence or issue command with envy. Colette's trade is more linear, one of her AP for one other models AP (and a slight push). Whereas Lucius can turn one of his AP into a (1) AP plus an additional effect such as focus, defensive or placing a scheme marker, essentially converting his one AP into two for another model.

 

Colette can spot a weakness and apply lots of pressure, Lucius can force multiply more generally across his crew. I often find Colette does better during the earlier turns of the game and progressively gets worst as her big key models start to die. Whereas Lucius stays relatively the same throughout the game whether he has a big crew or just a few models. Colette can apply pressure exactly where its needed allowing you to pinpoint exactly what you need accomplished in a given turn and diverting a ton of resources into making that happen. Lucius is not as focused with his AP sharing and requires a bit more planning and setup, but has the advantage of superior range and "free" AP tagged onto his trade in the form of extra damage/accuracy (focus), a walk and drop for schemes, or a good offence/defence combo (defensive). I like to think of Colette as a sniper rifle to Lucius' machine gun. It's quality versus quantity and sometimes you'll want one over the other.

 

I wouldn't call prompt anymore broken then issue command, it's just that sometimes you'll see prompt do some crazy things to crazy models, where as issue command may not be as "flashy" or as memorable as "that time howard ate half of the opponents crew" but it's effectiveness is very apparent and every bit as powerful as prompt depending on the situation presented. 

 

Thats just my 2 cents though.

[Blaze]

One of my favourite match ups (and also most difficult) with Colette is when I'm facing Lucius. I like to compare Colette to Lucius as it seems like he works counter to Colette but at the same time plays very similar. Colette is the scheme marker queen, while Lucius is the anti scheme marker king.

 

There are a ton of similarities between the two masters, often doing the same thing in different ways. 

 

Both masters have teleports. Lucius' is shorter ranged but nets you a scheme marker and repositions two models and has no restriction on the model being swapped. Whereas Colettes discards a scheme marker, only effects one minion/showgirl model but has the superior range. Personally I like Lucius' teleport better, but I've made some great plays using Colette's too.

 

Both masters also have (0) attack actions. Colettes is easier to pull off and is more accurate with a shorter range and Lucius is more difficult, less accurate but does more damage from further away, and also requiring an upgrade slot. I've seen both abilities do amazing things so I don't really value one over the other. 

 

Also both masters have soulstone manipulation. Colette can gain a free single suit every turn and easily gain additional stones through discarding cards and 1AP. Lucius doesn't get a free suit a turn, but can infinitely retain his stones as long as there are ablative wounds for him to utilize. Lucius has the advantage of using stones more flexibly but at a greater resource cost, whereas Colette has a more restrictive and limited use, but requiring no resources. Both great abilities. 

 

Both masters can be a pain to put down. Lucius can shrug off damage (albeit it's not very easy to pull off) with his upgrade trigger and red tape and highest authority can shut down models hard. Combine that with the fact that he has a decent stat line and pseudo infinite stones (dependant on surrounding Wds) and he can be extremely difficult to kill. Colette can shrug off damage easier and if that still doesn't work, she can sacrifice her ladies to stay alive. I think both models are in the upper tier of survivability, but I don't think i'm exaggerating by saying Colette is probably one of the most survivable masters in the game, but not unkillable. She really hates lure's and can be in real trouble versus opponents with many push/place effects (lilith, belles, obeys etc)

 

Lastly we have the mighty prompt versus issue command/commanding presence. There are many times where prompt is amazing and model X wrecks house or accomplishes a otherwise impossible scheme. Other times I look on at Lucius' flexibility with his commanding presence or issue command with envy. Colette's trade is more linear, one of her AP for one other models AP (and a slight push). Whereas Lucius can turn one of his AP into a (1) AP plus an additional effect such as focus, defensive or placing a scheme marker, essentially converting his one AP into two for another model.

 

Colette can spot a weakness and apply lots of pressure, Lucius can force multiply more generally across his crew. I often find Colette does better during the earlier turns of the game and progressively gets worst as her big key models start to die. Whereas Lucius stays relatively the same throughout the game whether he has a big crew or just a few models. Colette can apply pressure exactly where its needed allowing you to pinpoint exactly what you need accomplished in a given turn and diverting a ton of resources into making that happen. Lucius is not as focused with his AP sharing and requires a bit more planning and setup, but has the advantage of superior range and "free" AP tagged onto his trade in the form of extra damage/accuracy (focus), a walk and drop for schemes, or a good offence/defence combo (defensive). I like to think of Colette as a sniper rifle to Lucius' machine gun. Precision versus mass gain and sometimes you'll want one over the other.

 

I wouldn't call prompt anymore broken then issue command, it's just that sometimes you'll see prompt do some crazy things to crazy models, where as issue command may not be as "flashy" or as memorable as "that time howard ate half of the opponents crew" but it's effectiveness is very apparent and every bit as powerful as prompt.

 

Thats just my 2 cents though.

Thats a great 2 cents.

[Csonti]

Yes, Colette has a longer range. However, Hoffman gets free pushes when a construct near him moves, whereas Colette needs to hire a performer or use her own AP. And it's not like Rg6 is short by any means. Hoffman ties Colette if not wins in the range category because of his free pushes in my opinion.

 

Great comparison but in my opinion you seriously underestimate the power of range difference. We are talking about auras. A 10" aura covers almost 3 times more territory than a 6" one. Of course, in certain situations, when you have to fight in a tight space (like during Turf War) this is not a big issue but other times (like in Reconnotier, Reckoning, Claim Jump) you need to reach very different spots of the battlefield to get maximum efficiency. Colette can literally order an attack on both sides of the board and at the edges of the deployment zones if she is around the center spot. No Hoffman can pull that trick. Indeed, Hoff can drag himself around but that needs an outside help, the opponent could have a chance to react and he could still effect just a small portion of the board. If you move him to one place, you let the pressure slip on other parts where your opponent could act more freely. This virtually never happens in case of Colette.

 

And your otherwise thorough analysis accidentally misses to mention that with Machine Puppet you can't declare triggers. No Critical Strike for the Peacekeeper, no Decapitate with Langston, no Redline for the Rail Golem. On the other hand, Prompt yields a normal Attack without this serious restriction.

 

Lastly we have the mighty prompt versus issue command/commanding presence. There are many times where prompt is amazing and model X wrecks house or accomplishes a otherwise impossible scheme. Other times I look on at Lucius' flexibility with his commanding presence or issue command with envy. Colette's trade is more linear, one of her AP for one other models AP (and a slight push). Whereas Lucius can turn one of his AP into a (1) AP plus an additional effect such as focus, defensive or placing a scheme marker, essentially converting his one AP into two for another model.

 

Another great review of skills but here I also miss some important factors from the list.

 

Firstly Prompt doesn't convert 1 AP to 1 AP. That 3" push is not a "slight" one. That is 60-80% of distance that a heavy piece usually covers with a normal Walk action. A Push can get you out of engagement freely, and actually could move the model further in case of rough terrain. At worst Prompt could be called a 1 to 1,5 investment, no less.

I also miss the mention of Lucius' serious restrictions and risks when he uses Issue Command and Commanding Presence.

 

Issue Command: only Minions and they need to take a TN13 Horror Duel. So this means you have a good chance to waste a high card from your hand just to get this rolling and in case you happen to flip the BJ... well, that ruins the fun. Also you can effect a single model only once with this ability since a passed Horror Duel makes them immune to subsequent tries.

 

Commanding Presence: only non-Austringer Minions and again, one model can be effected only once per turn. And needs a 7+ and the necessary suit if you want to get more than a single AP converted to another one. Yes, you can tap your own models for "free" SS but that makes your team weaker and the enemy could snipe those poor souls more easily in retaliation.

By comparision: Prompt doesn't force Horror Duels, Prompt doesn't have any targeting restrictions other then friendly, Prompt doesn't need a suit to use more than 1 AP worth of stuff, Prompt can target the same model 3 (or more) times per turn.

[Carcosa]

BUMP

-cause I am still working on the challenge I was given-

[admiralvorkraft]

 

Both masters have teleports. Lucius' is shorter ranged but nets you a scheme marker and repositions two models and has no restriction on the model being swapped. Whereas Colettes discards a scheme marker, only effects one minion/showgirl model but has the superior range. Personally I like Lucius' teleport better, but I've made some great plays using Colette's too.

 

Lackeys is one of my favorite abilities in the game, but this is actually a good point of comparison between the two masters. Both have a powerful place effect but Colette's has longer range, isn't limited to once per turn, doesn't require a suit, and doesn't require you to reposition your master (potentially) deep into your own back field. I actually think it's a prime example of Colette doing what Lucius does with fewer restrictions and fewer liabilities.

Now I'll grant you the point on damage dealing - Lucius' paltry direct damage is still better than Colette's, and Secret Assets is a damn fine upgrade.

 

EDIT: This wasn't meant to be a complaint about Lackeys, that ability is the best thing on Lucius' card - at least the way I play him. You just overlooked a couple very important factors in your comparison.

[Soul Puppet]

I don't think Prompt is broken. Powerful yes but not broken.

 

Trap Doors is slightly more of an issue IMO, especially as any Arcanist Master can get it into their crew. I've taken 10 SS (Angelica 6, Practiced Production 1, Malifaux Raptor 3) and pretty much guaranteed Breakthrough, Plant Evidence and Power Ritual numerous times, A Line in the Sand also on Corner or Flank deployment.

 

For a 1SS upgrade that can be taken on Colette, Cassandra or Angelica, I think it's too strong.

 

Referring briefly to Leveticus, Collodi and Ramos:

 

Leveticus is a strong master, there's no denying this. It takes a while to learn how to use him effectively and it takes a while to learn how to counter him. Again though, i don't think he is broken.

 

Collodi I have more of an issue with but not him exactly, more when he is taken with Stitched Together. With the right set up, a single Stitched Together can potentially Gamble Your Life 10 times in a turn!* Yes, it's relatively short ranged but Neverborn have many ways to get closer to you and with multiple Stitched, it's hard to avoid. Plus Collodi crews quite often outnumber other crews, which makes set up easier. Even with this, I'm not sure I'd say he's broken but with his own ability to make attacks on +ve Dg flips as well, I find it very, very hard to deal with.

 

Ramos is also strong due to summoning spiders and they are quite dangerous in large numbers. I do think this hinders him a bit in Reckoning however (which is probably the same for most summoning Masters). Again though, I don't think he is broken.

 

 

*Run down:

 

Brutal Effigy hands out it's 'Power Rangers' ability so that models causing damage can heal.

Stitched can take 2 wounds to go fast = 3 casts

There are numerous ways to get the Stitched taken down to 1 wound to get Reactivate

Collodi can take 2 wounds to go fast and My Will the Stitched 4 times = 4 casts on +ve fiips

The Reactivating Stitiched can then go fast again = 3 casts

 

At Ca6 vs Df, most Masters would be wary of this barrage, let alone anyone else! Even though the flip is uncheatable, a 3/4/7 Dg run from each cast is devastating and the Stitched can only kill itself if it's on HTK when it casts.

 

But this highlights the perceived problem with Prompt; it's not the ability, it's the way it interacts with certain models. Yes Howard Langston making up to 10 Attacks** in a turn is nasty but the resource required to do it is very expensive.

 

**Run Down:

 

Howard discards Imbued Energies, allowing him to Flurry and make a fast attack = 4 attacks

Colette discards Imbued Energies and Prompts Howard 4 times = 4 attacks

Cassandra uses Understudy to Prompt Howard = 1 attack

Malifaux Child copies Prompt = 1 attack

 

Once you seen these in action though, you can start to learn ways to mitigate them. I'm not suggesting it's easy but I do think people give up and cry "broken" too easily sometimes.

[Jordon]

Maybe it's my local meta, but I've never had anyone complain about prompt (or maybe i'm doing it wrong ). I play the entire arcanist faction and people tend to complain more about my other masters. 

 

-Marcus getting 4-5 attacks at min damage 4 and domesticating enemy masters. Or turning Langston into a beast and Alpha him to reactivate.

 

-The ease at which Raspy can paralyze models, usually masters. Or how with her and the Wendigo can block off huge areas of the board with ice pillars. 

 

-Ramos summoning 2-3 models every turn (usually at full health with BET/Johan) with a reactivating Howard or Lazarus.

 

-Kaeris and her 5-6 AP flying rail golem is both hilarious and frightening. 

 

-Mei Fengs ability to Vent Steam a couple times can completely shut down certain lists entirely. 

 

My point is that it seems like the game is full of powerful abilities and it's up to you as the player to overcome them. Who know's how the game will shake up once wave 3 hits and all new combo's will be added to the game.

[Soul Puppet]

Well said.

[Dirial]

(or maybe i'm doing it wrong ).

 

Definitely this one.

[bertmac]

Rooster riders seem a bit low in cost reckless with 1ap charges and a once per turn trigger to get a free charge could effectively do 8 attacks in one activation with no help from anything else ml6 and a 245 damage track for 6 ss along with having wk+ch7 is pretty gross