Ironsides: Hero or Zero?

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

With Misaki's mastered I've set my sights to something new and Ironsides is very new indeed.

I've read her cards and she looks fun, but is she effective? Well, the first game I played would imply the answer is no. But!

One game is never enough. However, I think I learn a few things about her.

 

To begin, I've been thinking of her as a normal master. As in, she is a master who is good turn 1 and still good turn 5.

I don't think that's the case. So here's my thinking. If she activates outside melee range (so turn 1 and 2). She'll have to use her 1 AP lure-type to get even a single Adrenline. Keep in mind without any 'A' she is swining a lame attack and won't do much. Sure, you could trigger her get 'A' twice and then on her third attack trigger Uppercut but it'll be cb4. Plus you'll need CROW + CROW + RAM just to do that.

Let's say you use the lurething to get some 'A'. Well one is not enough. You need at least 2. Maybe then you could trigger to get more on her melee then trigger Uppercut on her last attack leavng you with 1 'A' to get a ml 5 on the Uppercut. Well that's not that great either. So you'd need a MASK, TOMB, TOMB, CROW, RAM. WOW that's suit intense.

 

Well clearly if you want to do anything worthwhile with her you'll need to wait late game. Because if all you do is toss out a few 2/3/4 attack or take one lame ML 4/5 attack that's hardly worth the buttload of cards you'd need to do so.

 

That means stones, lots of stones. But, you won't wanna waste them without knowing you got it going. So you get some more stones with Mages and a few upgrade tricks. Maybe you'll net one or two.

 

And I think that's where Ironsides unique style comes into play. Like Yan Lo. I think Toni is meant to start the game underpowered and gain power as she goes. So turn 1 - 3(ish) you'll probably just be harassing Minions. You'll build 'A' while taking little significant damage.

Around turn 3/4 you should hopefully be sitting on a stack of 'A'. Let's say you manage to secure 5 or 6 'A' by the time she goes. Well now we're cooking! You could start with 1AP attack. Trigger Uppercut. Drop down to 4 (let's say) 'A' then make a ML8 Uppercut. Then trigger a 1AP attack. You could trigger 'A' (putting you up to 5). Then Spend your 2nd AP to Jab (1 AP Attack) and trigger Uppercut (ml8). Trigger Jab (Adrenaline 3). On the Jab trigger uppercut (A 1) (cb5). Then last AP Jab and trigger Adrenaline. You end with 2. Probably a better way to do this. But, you'll have attacked...what 8 times? Hawt damn! 

 

Of course you'll probably be completely out of SS or damn close too. But, with this number of high damage attacks and pushes and if you had atleast some good cards, by turn 4 you could really really get work done. And this is what I hope is the case of her. That by having lame AP for the first half of the game you'll net more and better AP later game.

 

I'm not sold yet if her Mechanic works. I'm hopeful. But, I worry she's too suit intense. Really (and I mean really really) she should have had her Def Trigger built in. I think then she'd be amazing.

 

Her crew is really important too. The captain is almost a must. You need him to push her into melee range and to pull your Mages out.

Wouldn't take more than 2 mages though. I think two for their upgrades to make warding ruins better is the way to go. But, the real thing is Healing. I think for Toni to work her crew needs to supply heals. Her totem is lackluster as hell. I mean there is some tricks with his Drag that you could get some movement out of it. But, its nothing worth his points I think. I'll have to look but I think the success of Toni will make or break on her healings.

 

Def 5, 14 wounds, and Hard to kill I know sounds like a hard line to beat. But, really if Toni get's into combat with a bunch of the wrong models (which is what she is clearly designed to do) she'll fold pretty quick. I think her success also hinges on you knowing what enemies to engage.

 

 

Thoughts?! Stories of Success with her?

[Sybarite]

Tome! Eeeeeeee! no but seriously I am interested as well. Tried her once and wasnt impressed but like you say one game isnt really enough. I think she has more to offer as a buffer, mover and tarpit than damage dealer.

[dgraz]

A friend has used her a few times and I'm not sure I agree with all of your assessments. She has more staying power than you might think but that's only part of it. This isn't warmachine, it doesn't matter if she lasts to turn 5. The couple times I've faced her, she was thrown (seemingly recklessly) headlong into the heart of my crew (once, the scrum included Marcus and a Cerberus).....I think she died on turn 3 both times. But she held up most of my crew all that time all by herself and did more damage to me than I did to her with her defensive trigger. By the time I got clear of her a solid chunk of my crew was out of position and beat up pretty badly.....meanwhile, the rest of his crew was picking off the few models I had that weren't engaged and running around scoring VP.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Yah that aura is sick. But, that's not enough to take her alone. I think she can be a crazy damage dealer but not right away. Really not sure how she suppose to work yet.

 

Tomb - Tome = be

Tom - eb

Mot - be

Bemot.

 

I shall compromise and call it Bemot for you. Sound fair?

[Ampers&nd]

you've picked up on a lot, I feel Toni probably suffered in playtesting from the no model syndrome, and so is a difficult master to grab, if she either had -

 

• The DF trigger built in
• One adrenaline each turn for free (ala rail golem fire)
• Less suit intensive triggers (at least one follow up)

 

She would be great, obviously with all those things she'd be too good, but any one of them would have been REALLY helpful. that said I think you are playing one thing wrong (please don't take offense, just my opinion)

 

You are playing Mei Feng

 

If you want a fast, mobile master able to throw chain attacks at enemies, who can reposition and is relatively easy on the SS, play Mei. she can do all that much. MUCH. better than Ironsides. It seems that what you want from Ironsides is to use the enemy as a punchpag, and that's not where she lives. (she can do that, there is a post on here (ill find it after) where a player took a crew literally just to pump SS and healing into Ironsides and she was devastating, but it's a lot of effort for one trick, even if it's a great trick)

 

Ironsides does get better late game, you are correct, but she also gets better when you realise she isn't the focus of her crew, she's the real people's champion;) Hand picked Men will win or lose you games with IS. it's a hideously powerful buff, and it only costs a few wounds. Howard, Joss, Johan, Willie, If they have M&SU you can make them shine with Ironsides. hell, I once had Howard with HPM and a buff from the mobile toolkit kill an enemy master in one round of melee, because he's already insane, would you like more positive flips? alright then...

 

As for making her work- take Challenge the crowd and she can sit out some situations even a Resser master would struggle with while her crew gets the job done. Give her Message from the union and stick some Gunsmiths with her and watch the enemies fold under fire (seriously- plant burning 9 on anything outside a master and watch it go down). Mouse isn't needed for healing ironsides, she can do that herself with Iron Determination. The mages making her immune to conditions and giving her regen is another big boost.

 

She has a dependable lure, which is a bit mental as they get to take a swing, but it is dependable, and can draw things out of position. Not many masters have Lure, so don't write it off simply as a way to get adrenaline (though it is good for that late turn, if you can activate her last you can get multiple enemies in a good place) 

 

Mouse is there to heal, and hurt, allies. Move once turn one and use his attack to drag an ally into B2B, hopefully inuring it, now it has [+] flips when its near IS. unless it's Johan, who now has more [+] flips than you can shake a hammer at if she's within range. if you accidentally cause too many wounds Mouse can heal them back up. and he can keep topping up injured friendlies just enough to keep them injured too. Tying an opponents feet together when they are within ML range of IS means there's dependable adrenaline next turn too, so don't write him off. there are better 4ss in the faction (metal gamin....) but he fills a lot of roles a little bit, and in some schemes that's very important.

 

Soulstone Miners can work independently for longer schemes, but they can also give you back those much needed SS. Mages for the Warding, (also- Mage of blood is a combat beast, 4 Ca6 melee attacks a turn? yes please!) Johan because Johan. Gunsmiths are great in Melee and at Range, Miners can churn out markers for schemes like nobodies business and Willie can blow them up. Ironsides will make all those people better at what they do. and then late game she will beat the tar out of anyone stupid enough to be within range. She isn't an assassin, or a beater, she isn't DPS. She's a leader, a tank, a support model and a lure.

 

Overall- Keep with her, she is very difficult to learn, certainly one of the harder masters, and there are some strats she just sucks at, no two ways about it. But get her and the boys to the middle for turf war and watch as your opponent bounces off and gets shot down in flames:) All this comes with the caveat that I lose as much as I win with her, But I love every single game. I beat Tara to death last activation of turn 6 once with 5 melee attacks including two uppercuts, it was a thing of beauty and worth any number of losses to pull off:) 

 

edit: http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/106184-first-attempt-with-ironside-crew/ is the write up of the savage Ironsides-beats-your-face crew:)

[Kadeton]

That was an inspiring write-up. Ironsides is my most anticipated Master. I will also be interested in how she turns out for the OP - bit of a departure from your usual style, I think?

[Jordon]

I found the best thing to running Ironsides successfully is utilizing her flexibility and knowing your opponents models and how they work. She is by no means a strait forward master despite her abilities leading you to believe she is a brawler. You need to break down her card and see what makes Toni tick. Just blindly tossing her into Ml is a recipe for a quick death unless you have a good reason to do so. Here are some things to keep in mind with her

 

Speed: Using her (0) Rush em makes her very mobile, and being a place effect can be an effective way to keep her safe or throw her at someone she normally couldn't reach. Since her own damage output is relatively low, this ability is there to make sure her fists are landing exactly where your opponent least expects or want's. I often use this ability to attack backfield support models, where even minor damage can be hugely felt. 

 

Tarpit: If loaded out correctly, Toni can be a incredible tarpit. Getting a    to Df flips and being able to heal can be a huge nuisance and disrupt vast AP from the opponent. Even though the DF trigger is not built in, just knowing its on the card is often enough of a deterrent, especially on models who's attacks are usually weaker. Her aura can lock people down beyond her engagement and her lure can bring them back if they do manage to get away. Again the key is absolutely knowing your opponents models. High damage models need to be avoided or dealt with, otherwise your just going to get her killed in a hurry.

 

Support: Hand picked men is simply one of the most effective buffs in the whole game, hands down. People keep trying to shoe horn Toni as a Mei Feng wannabe, but in my opinion the true strength of Toni is HPM. If you want to wade into enemies and do massive damage with loads of AP, then play Mei, as she is the combo queen. Giving friendly models what is essentially a free "focus" aura is bonkers. It enables her models to hit way above their SS class and take on models they would otherwise has a tough time with. Sure it does require the model to be pre-damaged, but honestly that has never been an issue for me. This is honestly where I get most of my success with Toni. Either lure away a big model from it's group and let her crew tear it apart, or throw her at a model - or group of models and use her as a lightning rod to soak damage, while your crew dismantles them. You can also take her flaming bottle and play support while still being a decently effective ranged model. Again I stress her flexibility.

 

So again, the key I believe in running Toni is to use all of her abilities and know when to commit her. Her damage output CAN be decent if you play your recourses right, but its an afterthought for me and just adds to her flexibility. She has all the tools she needs to be successful, she just needs an experienced player to know when and when not to use them. Board control, resilience, damage output and support are all things she can contribute. She may not be the best at any particular role, but her overall flexibility generally makes up for that. Also don't be afraid to get her killed if it means denying important VP's. 

[PolishSausage]

I feel she is going to be one of those masters like Lady J, very appealing to new players and extremely hard to play correctly

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

And like Tara I think they mechanic the made up for her doesnt work but she might be good at something else. I found in the Tara case that not bury and not giving fast but instead burying your own models and running schemes is way better. This is suspect is the case of Ironsides. While they may have intended for her to gain buffs from damage then turn into a beat stick, it really seems like its not worth the effort to do it.

 

I can see that the powerful play is to stick in behind her crew so they benefit from her aura which is truely the best ability she has. Then use her lure to pull things into her crew to eat. Its not that I dont think it's effective its that its just not very exciting. And the mechanic that was intended seems way more fun. Which if all this winds up being the case I wont be buying her crew. If the main theme she's designed around doesn't work and I have to work off a secondary theme, one that for some reason is miles better than the concept, It's not worth the money. There's too many other exciting masters to play.

 

That all being said I really want her to work. I think the idea is great. But, it might be a case of 'let's wait till she gets an upgrade that fixes her'. I really think giving her at least one built in trigger would go really far. I already know that if I do what I suggested in the OP it'll still be a very very suit intensive thing and prone to failure if one thing doesnt land. Plus, it'll eat a stone on each attack probably becuase you wont have the dang cards.

[D_acolyte]

Normally I hate recommending going to other places but have you listened to schemesandstones pod cast, they have one on her.

My one game with her was ok, I used her as a threat and pulled an enemy to her. I think she will be better once wave 3 is out and I agree that she might have suffered during the beta with no model out, which normally means look at the POWER! but not so here. She is a tank that is nice with hard to kill S&MU models.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Not sure why you're using her AP to lure your own models though. What's the gain here?

[katadder]

think it would have been useful if she had a built in suit for gaining adrenaline on her punches (the warm up one i think).

without that she really struggles. most adrenaline I have had in a turn was 3

[Jordon]

If you think about it, every 1AP under the effects of hand picked men gets essentially doubled due to a free focus. So a model that has 3AP worth of attacks is hitting as if it had 6AP worth of attacks (assuming it focused every attack of coarse). It's also a nice perk that a good many of models that have access to 3AP are also M&SU. 

 

 

-Gunsmiths (concealed weapon)

-Ox Mages (furious casting)

-Yohan (Flurry)

-Firestarter (reckless)

-Langston (flurry)

-Steam Arachnid Swarm (overwhelm)

-Rail Golem (locomotion)

-Captain (casting expert)

[Kadeton]

The struggle for me has always been that Adrenaline is such a slow build and such a quick burn. It doesn't give the mechanical feel of a flaring temper - instead, it feels like Ironsides really struggles to give a toss about the violence happening around her, and if she does manage to get properly riled up, she's over it really fast. In contrast to her relative calm, everyone around her goes absolutely berserk if they get so much as a scratch. It's a bizarre thematic dynamic.

 

I suspect changing the way I think about her "personality" will change my attempted playstyle. She's not the flip-out-kill-people type, she's the smirking provocateur at the centre of a gang of hair-trigger toughs looking for any excuse to get bloody.

[Bengt]

I think people are overstating the value of HPM, sure it's nice to get free "focus", but it isn't equivalent to doubling a models AP. For starters models don't use all their AP for attacking; secondly a 2 AP model is still only making 2 attacks if you weren't forced to focus in the first place (like if you were shooting at something in cover); thirdly you have to spend AP damaging your own models if you want the bonus without your opponents cooperation. Other negatives include having to clump up and the fact that many M&SU models have armour and lowish Wd scores.

 

So I don't think HPM raises Ironsides from a zero, and the adrenaline mechanic is definitely zero material. I'm still going to order her on the 12th though because she is just so cool.

[docbungle]

I want to try her as a support burning master.

 

Throwing out burning bottles that Gunsmiths and Firestarter can make use of.

 

Before she is ready to get into the mix of standing there gaining Adrenaline, I think she could be interesting if the Conflux from the Emmissary stays the same as I think that could help her loads.

 

I do agree her many little pushes are a trap as she cant do it as well as Mei Feng especially as it lowers very quickly

[docbungle]

think it would have been useful if she had a built in suit for gaining adrenaline on her punches (the warm up one i think).

without that she really struggles. most adrenaline I have had in a turn was 3

 

I have managed to get 5 in a turn and then killed a Mech Rider (RJ helped)

[Kadeton]

I want to try her as a support burning master.

 

Throwing out burning bottles that Gunsmiths and Firestarter can make use of.

 

I like that idea as well, but I can't think which upgrade I'd forego to take Message from the Union.

 

I'd want her to be as tanky as possible, since she's likely to take some hits - that means Challenge the Crowd for the :+fate on Df, Iron Determination to avoid getting punked out by a Red Joker and to be able to heal up, and Warding Runes because I literally can't say no to giving a model Counterspell, immunity to enemy Conditions and Regeneration for a single stone. Is that too many upgrades? They're all so good that I find them hard to resist - what do other people take with her?

[Ampers&nd]

That's harsh, and a little unfair- Adrenaline may not be an all powerful 'I win' mechanic like Levi's bury or the Vik missile but if played well it can be great, I've topped out at ten adrenaline (though I had the emissary in play) and my opponent found that game very difficult, she tanks very well indeed which for me makes it not a zero, just something that requires thought and planning.

 

As for saying Hand Picked Men isnt that good, well that's of course your opinion. to discuss your points however -

 

• Models don't use all their AP for attacking: well yes, but every attack they do make just got significantly better. 
• Still only making two attacks: yep, can't argue there, but two attacks with positive flips to attack and damage, ignoring cover and built in negatives without requiring focus. forget the attack bonus for a second: anything that gives [+] to damage for free is great. it makes anything above a draw cheatable unless they have H2W/I2W etc. that's big.
• Spending AP damaging your own models or relying on the enemy: Yep, but that's part of game management, a choice you make, would you swap one AP from say- willie, to give 3/4 models focus on every attack for the rest of the game? I certainly would. <edit- as it happens you don't even need to use one of willie's AP, just walk near them turn one, if they have armour you're tapping them for free> As it happens I also don't have much trouble getting my enemy to cause wounds on my models, they do it pretty regularly.
• Having to clump up: yes, but then so do a lot of other masters crews, it's just a tactical choice, I wouldn't use IS in recon for this reason, but In turf of Stash you're going to be pretty clumped anyway. her aura is 6" too, which gives a 12" spread- not really that clumped up if you don't want to be.
• Armour is a downside? not sure what you mean here? armour is a good thing as it means that when you do wound your own models the damage gets reduced but will always be one- one being the amount of wounds you want to cause. It's also worth noting that the lowish wound scores are usually balanced by the fact the M&SU has a large number of H2K models it can field, and those that aren't are usually able to play backfield like Mages.

 

Saying Ironsides abilities are zeroes for situational reasons like those is like saying corpse bloat is a zero because he has to sacrifice a wound and an AP to generate a corpse token, nothing is free in Malifaux and Ironsides is no exception. Is she less powerful than many masters? Definitely, cetainly the bottom ranked arcanist at least. is she a Zero? Hell no.

[Ampers&nd]

I like that idea as well, but I can't think which upgrade I'd forego to take Message from the Union.

 

 

I usually drop Iron determination and throw in a silent one if I'm going for flamethrower mode, you risk the red joker to the face, but it's not happened to me (yet!) 

[docbungle]

I like that idea as well, but I can't think which upgrade I'd forego to take Message from the Union.

 

I'd want her to be as tanky as possible, since she's likely to take some hits - that means Challenge the Crowd for the :+fate on Df, Iron Determination to avoid getting punked out by a Red Joker and to be able to heal up, and Warding Runes because I literally can't say no to giving a model Counterspell, immunity to enemy Conditions and Regeneration for a single stone. Is that too many upgrades? They're all so good that I find them hard to resist - what do other people take with her?

 

Last time I ran her didnt take Challenge the Crowd.

 

This was I had her healing from Iron Determination then Mouse AND Johan. Bases are pretty covered from that in my limited experience

[Bengt]

Ampersand, when did I say that HPM was bad? My response was to statements like:

Hand picked Men will win or lose you games with IS. it's a hideously powerful buff,

and Jordon saying it doubled every ones AP.

 

And sure there are situations when free focus is very good, e.g. if you are having a ranged battle with both crews being in cover. But that is not something that happens that often, in most situations focus just makes attacks a little better. And really, on a relatively flat track (e.g. 2/3/4 or 4/5/6)  to damage has a pretty negligible effect, it has much more noticeable effect on something like Ramos' punch (1/2/7) though obviously he can't get the benefit. Union Miner and Large Arachnid has fairly steep tracks though.

 

Some models have lots of wounds, a similar model might have less wounds and armour (or HtK, my gut feeling is that armour is more common in M&SU then HtK but I'm too lazy to count ). Quite a lot M&SU models fall in the later category. I didn't mean that armour was bad, I just included it as an overall description of a models defence.

 

Being the worst Arcanist (maybe even worst in the game) do make her a zero in my opinion. Fortunately in Malifaux being the worst doesn't mean unplayable.

[Ampers&nd]

apologies, you came across a bit negative so I came across a bit defensive;) I think the best argument I can give for Ironsides is this- I can win games with her against good players with powerful masters. And I am utterly sh*te at Malifaux. ask anyone who's played me, I really am quite, quite terrible;)

 

I'm a bit weirded out by the not being in cover statement, down here it's unusual to take a shot at someone that doesn't have at least light cover, no-one stands in the open very much at all unless they are in melee or crazy hard (I'm looking at you Mollie...)

 

(And I stand by the hideously powerful buff statement;) flat damage tracks still usually have at least two points between weak and severe, and that can make the difference between an opponent having to allocate healing or just bug out, especially with Flurry/Furious casting when it can become 4 or even 6 more wounds, plus always being able to cheat in the RJ if you have it is brilliant) 

[Kadeton]

Being able to cheat damage at all is an enormous tactical advantage, in my opinion. The difference between flipping two cards and taking the lowest and just flipping a single card isn't particularly impressive, but the ability to directly affect the outcome and plan out your damage to achieve your goals for the turn is huge. Anything that reduces your random variance makes it easier to win fights.

[Bengt]

I'm a bit weirded out by the not being in cover statement, down here it's unusual to take a shot at someone that doesn't have at least light cover, no-one stands in the open very much at all unless they are in melee or crazy hard (I'm looking at you Mollie...)

Well everyone tries to be in cover or melee. But then things get pushed, models die, or flanked and there are open shots to be had.

 

Being able to cheat damage at all is an enormous tactical advantage, in my opinion. The difference between flipping two cards and taking the lowest and just flipping a single card isn't particularly impressive, but the ability to directly affect the outcome and plan out your damage to achieve your goals for the turn is huge. Anything that reduces your random variance makes it easier to win fights.

This. The step from  to neutral is by far the most significant. So if you are doing a fire line HPM is more powerful as cover is much more common than things like Yin | Mass of Viscera that gives  to melee attacks.