decker_cky Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 It really upsets me that Kaeris's born of Fire upgrade is borderline terrible because something like that is a cool summoning mechanic I think could have been explored more. Imagine something like McMourning's summoning upgrade on Kaeris, just with some sort of Fire golem (come on Wyrd, it's about time we get one for fire!) instead of a Flesh Construct (balance the golem around 7-8 stones). I can think of so many cool mechanics that could go along with a fire golem. It wouldn't be too hard to fill in that design space though if Wyrd want. Make a fire golem for the next book, and simultaneously test a new upgrade for Kaeris. And test Raethford as a gamin/golem based master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Barrows Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Some thoughts: Order of Chimera: I don't see any issue with another Beast Master. Marcus might be the leader of his pack, but there's no reason that the "Order of Chimera" would just be Marcus's pack. The Order of Chimera could be multiple "packs" ran in a decentralized manner. It's make a bit more sense the the "Order of Chimera" being two people. Cult of December: I could see another Leader in the manner that there is more than one M&SU Leader. Said Leader would lead his/her own faction within the Cult but still be loyal to Raputina. Gamin Summoning: I'm kinda interested in gamin-focused Master. So, I'm against a CoD summoning Master because I want a gamin-summoning Master. This Master probably wouldn't be a MS&U character. Academic Master: I like this, but considering there's Academic models in multiple factions, I'm not sure I would want it to be Arcanist. I'm not a particular fan of Albus (or whatever Molly's stalker's name is). Albeit, it's largely because we haven't seen much other than he created the Students and sent them for Molly. I could easily change on this. But generally, I prefer Guild, Arcanist, Ten Thunders, or Outcast as they could be seen recruiting all of these other Academics. New Magic Cult: Definitely. While the MS&U should be the prime example of the Arcanists power and organization. I would love to see a new group. But yeah. We got three definite MS&U Masters and two sortas (Colette and Mei Feng). The next Master the Arcanists get, I would like to see the expansion of a current non-MS&U group (particularly the two that are not associated with the M&SU) or an entirely new group. EDIT: I dislike Raethford. I'm happy letting him be dead/special scenerio only. If he was brought back, it'd be better Rezzer or Outcast, because when you are executed by a group, it's safe to say you are not welcomed anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I haven't seen anything in the very few fluff pieces we have seen on Marcus that paints him in that kind of picture. He is highly intelligent and if anything seems to welcome some outside conversation....he only embraces the primal when in battle.I got that impression from the story where he's talking to McMourning. It was a beautiful, subtle piece of characterisation - Marcus is never overtly menacing, he just carries an air of unassailable authority that reduces McMourning - a highly-trained physician, trusted senior Guild officer, and self-assured mass-murderer - to the status of a child or pitiable fool, which he can't stand for any length of time. From memory (I haven't read the story in a while) it's Miranda who's overtly threatening, and I suspect her jealousy would be the main factor in keeping other potential Order members - even those who could handle feeling like lesser beings all the time - away.As far as where do the beasts come from.....honestly who cares? When Sonnia blows someone up and out pops a fully trained and equipped Witchling Stalker no one questions it....or Seamus summons one of his lovely Belles from the remains of a Mature Nephilim.I question it. But yes, very little of the summoning makes sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whut Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Academic Master: I like this, but considering there's Academic models in multiple factions, I'm not sure I would want it to be Arcanist. Jack Daw uses the majority of the Resser Faction Levi takes nearly every model in the game Hamelin takes from multiple other factions, as does Marcus, Zoraida, etc I think it's not much of s problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 From memory (I haven't read the story in a while) it's Miranda who's overtly threatening, and I suspect her jealousy would be the main factor in keeping other potential Order members - even those who could handle feeling like lesser beings all the time - away. It was Myranda....but, she isn't the Pack Leader. She does what Marcus says. As I mentioned, Marcus is intelligent.....a professor...and he is studying Chimerancy. Having an entire team of other people helping with his research would only make sense for him. Gamin Summoning: I'm kinda interested in gamin-focused Master. So, I'm against a CoD summoning Master because I want a gamin-summoning Master. This Master probably wouldn't be a MS&U character. I really dig this idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishSausage Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Marcus and McMorning work together, one melds flesh with magic while other stitches it together. Their creations benefit from both their skill sets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 It was Myranda....but, she isn't the Pack Leader. She does what Marcus says.I always think of them as an alpha pair, in the way that most pack structures have. I don't think Myranda is a pushover. As I mentioned, Marcus is intelligent.....a professor...and he is studying Chimerancy. Having an entire team of other people helping with his research would only make sense for him.Perhaps we have different impressions of his methods, but I don't see him as a scientist. He's a spiritualist and mystic, and that type of study tends to be far more directed by introspection and solitary contemplation, which wouldn't greatly benefit from having a research team. I get the sense that Marcus already has a complete and intuitive knowledge of anatomy and biology - there's no more research for him to do in scientific areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Pretty sure he's more of a hands on scientist than a spiritualist. He actually makes most of the beasts in the arcanist faction. He's a tinkerer at heart - I got the impression that he went to the wild because he was tired of the theory and wanted to do practical experiments. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 He actually makes most of the beasts in the arcanist faction.Which ones, out of interest? Unless I'm remembering wrong, Into the Steam confirms that Sabertooth Cerberus, Razorspine Rattlers, Malifaux Raptors, Hoarcats and Slate Ridge Maulers are native to Malifaux. The Blessed of December had nothing to do with Marcus. I could get behind the idea that he created the Molemen, but I don't think that's been confirmed or even teased anywhere.My impression was that he had transcended science and gone into the wilderness as a kind of spiritual hermitage. He's not modifying the animals, but trying to connect with them spiritually to unlock his own bestial potential.Anyway, it's testament to the depth Wyrd has created in Marcus that we can have a discussion about his true character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I really don't like the idea of a Gamin Master, each Gamin is tied to an existing Master in the fluff. Kaeris Fire, Mei Feng Metal, Rasputine Ice, we don't know if Wind Gamin will be connected to anyone, but since they are not really Gamin anyway I don't care. To make someone new "better" at the respective Gamin than their creators I think would diminish the existing fluff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Which ones, out of interest? Unless I'm remembering wrong, Into the Steam confirms that Sabertooth Cerberus, Razorspine Rattlers, Malifaux Raptors, Hoarcats and Slate Ridge Maulers are native to Malifaux. The Blessed of December had nothing to do with Marcus. I could get behind the idea that he created the Molemen, but I don't think that's been confirmed or even teased anywhere. According to page 160 of the ruleboook Marcus modified the Sabertooth Cerberus to have three heads, so we are not playing with the native species. Molemen are his creations as per page 159. The others are explicitly native. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 According to page 160 of the ruleboook Marcus modified the Sabertooth Cerberus to have three heads, so we are not playing with the native species. Molemen are his creations as per page 159. The others are explicitly native.Nice. Looks like I need to refresh my memory of the fluff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Perhaps we have different impressions About 180 degrees different I think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 He also fixed issues McMourning was having with his Rogue Necromancy (and was quite interested in how and why McM had done certain things in making the Necromancy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Top Hat Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I've not read all the fluff yet so my ideas might be way off. Cult of December: Perhaps a new master could be someone in Malifaux responsible for bringing a recruits? Academic: I'd love an Arcanist/Neverborn Faustian master who aids academics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Talk about spiraling on to a tangent and never coming off of it. I am opposed to another dual faction guild, neverborn, or resur as they already have 3 and I feel anymore would hinder there faction feel even more than it is. Dual faction masters I believe harms the feel of factions, Example: Lucius with a lawyer, Dashel, 2 guild riflemen, as the base for a neverborn crew is really guild with a purple label to it and I believe does more harm than good. This is not to say that this is always the case, I once played with Lucius and only 1 lawyer and his totem with the rest being in faction in a neverborn game and yes he was fun, but dual masters seem to be ripe for harming faction feel, identity crisis (mostly a 10 Thunder issue) or really just belonging to 1 faction more than the other. Identity crisis in this case is where you take a crew and it could be part of either faction, Example is McCabe going dog and wastrel heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I got that impression from the story where he's talking to McMourning. It was a beautiful, subtle piece of characterisation - Marcus is never overtly menacing, he just carries an air of unassailable authority that reduces McMourning - a highly-trained physician, trusted senior Guild officer, and self-assured mass-murderer - to the status of a child or pitiable fool, which he can't stand for any length of time. From memory (I haven't read the story in a while) it's Miranda who's overtly threatening, and I suspect her jealousy would be the main factor in keeping other potential Order members - even those who could handle feeling like lesser beings all the time - away. You got me interested. Which Chronicles is this in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 You got me interested. Which Chronicles is this in? Its not Chronicles, Its Book 2 Rising powers from the last edition Edit - Book 3 twisting fate even. Makes it pretty clear that Marcus is still an experimenting scientist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Actually I always thought Lucius was the best (right after McMourning) as a dual faction master and I really like it that they are. Both game and fluff wise. It doesn't break the faction for me at least, it makes the game even fluffier when you can play Lucius in Neverborn with a few picked guild models. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Actually I always thought Lucius was the best (right after McMourning) as a dual faction master and I really like it that they are. Both game and fluff wise. It doesn't break the faction for me at least, it makes the game even fluffier when you can play Lucius in Neverborn with a few picked guild models. I agree. Zoraida and the Gremlins, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I agree. Zoraida and the Gremlins, too. Well that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Actually I always thought Lucius was the best (right after McMourning) as a dual faction master and I really like it that they are. Both game and fluff wise. It doesn't break the faction for me at least, it makes the game even fluffier when you can play Lucius in Neverborn with a few picked guild models. If you just bring Lucius to the Neverborn I would agree, most of the Lucius crews I have seen though tend to feel to me as being Neverborn in name only. I tend to think as Neverborn as a tricky mi faction and Lucius is defiantly a tricky support master, but if someone said I am going to build a shooting list based around guild riflemen I would say that is not Neverborn regardless of your master. Each faction tends to have a feel, some is fluff and some is play style, associated with them and that feel is important to a faction identity, various models can hinder or gray some of the distinct feel for the faction. Such as Angel Eyes does not feel like a Neverborn either, but that is one model and not porting the majority of a crew over. It is sort of like if half or more of you points or model count is from another faction are you really playing you faction? Most Neverborn Lucius crews I have seen start with: Neverborn Crew Lucius +Suprisingly Loyal [1] Captain Dashel [9] Guild Lawyer [6] Guild Rifleman [5] Guild Rifleman [5] That is over half the points of a 50 ss game and probably greater than half the model number a person will field. I understand the fluff behind having dual faction masters, I also get some possible business reasons I just am not a fan of the execution/application. I think that 4 models from the other faction is to much borrowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breng77 Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 So then you must hate Levi and Marcus. To me factions don't have a specific feel to them(other than very general), masters do. Maybe it comes from playing arcanists, but many of the masters and their crews are so different there is no over arching theme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 So then you must hate Levi and Marcus. To me factions don't have a specific feel to them(other than very general), masters do. Maybe it comes from playing arcanists, but many of the masters and their crews are so different there is no over arching theme. I am not a fan of them especially in first ed, but for various reasons as well. Now adays I see very little reason for Marcus or Levi to take more than 1 or 2 models from another faction in general. Though in the early days of first ed I did call Marcus the honorary Neverborn. I also have not seen a Levi or Marcus crew that so blatantly belongs to another faction in theory, I think the most I saw was a hunter with a necropunk. I am more understanding of them because there factions do not support there aspects/subtype they work with as much so I am more forgiving of them. You forgot Colodi, Zeroda, Jack Daw and Hamelin. I do not mind some mixing of factions. I agree that masters have a feel. Master feel was a big part of first ed for Outcast (who actual could higher only a subset of their factions) and Arcanists (who many masters really only worked well with a subset of their faction). Now does faction feel trump master feel is iffy I rather have them augment each other, I think master feel only needs to be considered independently if they only work with a sub setting Key word that their faction does not support. I think a Dual faction master should not be able to have the master feel trump faction because I believe that if you are a dual faction master you should work well in either faction without porting a substantial part of your crew form your other faction. Lucius works just as well in Neverborn without any Guild only models. Only a few of his abilities or actions works better for guild guard and mimic, all other are mostly minions. Choosing a faction and master should have ups and down which you the player have decided on by taking that master and these should play into the feel of both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Now back onto topic, Has anyone tried Ironside with Union Miners or Willie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.