Jack Daw Project

[apes-ma]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

He can easily do 14 damage in 3 AP, so its not that far from a tooled up Vik, and that doesn't need any set up from him. (The bigger they are and using the first attack to put Guillotine injustice, and the last attack to remove an injustice). Its more single target focused, but it seems the current play style is less swarmy than before. 

I might be missing something here, but I don't see how he gets to 14 without setting up (i.e. ensuring Firing Squad Injustice is on the target before his activation)? Here's my thinking...

Attack 1 - deals 2 damage (or 3, if they have an upgrade already), give target Firing Squad Injustice.
Attack 2 - deals 4 damage (2 +1 from the bigger they are, +1 from Firing Squad Injustice.
Attack 3 - deals 4 damage (as before), +2 damage from removing Firing Squad Injustice.

That's either 12, or 13 if the target started with an upgrade. Where do the other 2/1 points of damage come from? If the target started off with Firing Squad Injustice on it then you get to 14/15.

[Saduhem]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

He can easily do 14 damage in 3 AP, so its not that far from a tooled up Vik, and that doesn't need any set up from him. (The bigger they are and using the first attack to put Guillotine injustice, and the last attack to remove an injustice). Its more single target focused, but it seems the current play style is less swarmy than before. 

It's just that, played that way, half of his card, theme, and master specific upgrades are irrelevant, which is kind of sad, and although it is probably more effective, why not just play Levi, Viks, or Misaki?

He can be a beater, but I don't see myself picking him over another one in faction. And he can be supporty, but he needs to many cards for all those TNs.

[PositronMike]

4 hours ago, Saduhem said:

It's just that, played that way, half of his card, theme, and master specific upgrades are irrelevant, which is kind of sad, and although it is probably more effective, why not just play Levi, Viks, or Misaki?

He can be a beater, but I don't see myself picking him over another one in faction. And he can be supporty, but he needs to many cards for all those TNs.

I don't see what you mean by all the TNs. Usually when I am playing Jack the only action I use nearly every activation which has a TN is his 0 on his card. Most of the support from Jack I find is from Writhing Torment and then he usually concentrates on putting curses on people at range. 

[Saduhem]

Feel Their Torment TN 15 - Needs 8
Twist and Turn TN 14 - Needs 7

Driven By Injustice TN 13 - Needs 6

Feel Their torment on Greed needs an 8 + the WP resist on the enemy (That's probably two 8+) [Just an example of one of the most ideal things to copy to maximize Feel their torment as otherwise "The Greed Spreads" can only be cast once per turn].

So, to use something like The Greed Spreads on someone with Feel their torment you have to:

- Be within 8 of Greed

- Succesfully cast with an 8

- Be within 8 of Enemy Model

- Win opposed WP duel

 

This is one example, but that's a recurrent thing with Daw unless you're beating on someone, in which case CA7 vs Def and WP on his attacks are pretty nice but even then you might have to hit with Suppressed memories vs wp, burn a stone for ghost of Malifaux, hit with noose, place upgrade, hit with noose again, remove upgrade. 

There are just SO many moving parts.

Generally speaking other Masters with TNs make up for the cards needed in other ways. Kirai, for example, uses high cards to summon but the adversary conditions give + flips. Sandeep does the same, using the Gamins to get the + flips. Asami gives out focus. Collodi gives out focus and AP. 

If we look at beater masters, all their high cards go to the attacks themselves. They don't spend cards on high TNs and charge in hoping to flip nicely.

Jack Daw is in between. TNs everywhere on his card, upgrades, and his tormented buddies but no real way of making up for the math through focus, flips, or card draw.
That's why people play him more successfully as a dedicated beater so the high cards actually have an use. But at that point, why play Daw in the first place? Vik and Misaki can do the same to multiple targets, Levi can bypass reductions and has higher survivability. The poor guy is defense 4. A focused attack is either going to melt him or make you cheat those high cards again.

Same on Jaakuna or anything else. Need an 8, after that, you get the actual duel and you can BJ either one.

Share guilt needs a 6 on the guilty or an 8 to copy and a 6 for Jack Daw.

That's not counting the fact that the rest of your crew needs those cards too, like the 5+ for Sue and Marlena Webster.

If you play him as a beater, sure, TNs don't really matter except for the 6 on Driven by Injustice. But I really, really find that Levi, the Viks, and Misaki are so much better at it.

Generally speaking other Masters with TNs make up for the cards needed in other ways. Kirai, for example, uses high cards to summon but the adversary conditions give + flips. Sandeep does the same, using the Gamins to get the + flips. 
If we look at beater masters, all their high cards go to the attacks themselves. They don't spend cards on high TNs and charge in hoping to flip nicely.

Jack Daw is in between. TNs everywhere on his card, upgrades, and his tormented buddies but no real way of making up for the math through focus, flips, or card draw.
That's why people play him more successfully as a dedicated beater so the high cards actually have an use. But at that point, why play Daw in the first place? Vik and Misaki can do the same to multiple targets, Levi can bypass reductions and has higher survivability. The poor guy is defense 4. A focused attack is either going to melt him or make you cheat those high cards again.
 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

@Saduhem I think Positron's point was that he is NOT using that card intensive upgrade which lets you copy actions and obey tormented models. He uses only free push from WT and spends Jack's AP and cards to attack and attach upgrades.

[Adran]

16 hours ago, apes-ma said:

I might be missing something here, but I don't see how he gets to 14 without setting up (i.e. ensuring Firing Squad Injustice is on the target before his activation)? Here's my thinking...

Attack 1 - deals 2 damage (or 3, if they have an upgrade already), give target Firing Squad Injustice.
Attack 2 - deals 4 damage (2 +1 from the bigger they are, +1 from Firing Squad Injustice.
Attack 3 - deals 4 damage (as before), +2 damage from removing Firing Squad Injustice.

That's either 12, or 13 if the target started with an upgrade. Where do the other 2/1 points of damage come from? If the target started off with Firing Squad Injustice on it then you get to 14/15.

What you have missed is my misremebering firing squad only does +1 damage rather than +2. 12 damage. (For what its worht, if 12 isn't enough to kill the model, I would put anotehr upgrade on in attack 2, and remove that in attack 3, leaving Firing squad on them)

[PositronMike]

1 hour ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

@Saduhem I think Positron's point was that he is NOT using that card intensive upgrade which lets you copy actions and obey tormented models. He uses only free push from WT and spends Jack's AP and cards to attack and attach upgrades.

That is generally how I play Daw, however I do sometime take twist and turn and use it to copy an action usually if I am taking some of the crossroads 7 models who have some nice attacks which are limited to once per turn. What I don't bother doing is using the (0) on twist and turn as I find his (0) on his base card so much more useful. Therefore if I a copying an action with Jack I need an 8 this is not very different to obey which needs a 7 yet you don't see people complaining about how Hamelin is having to use all his high cards to obey friendly models.

If you start looking at other models then yes there can be a lot of TNs in the crew however some of them you are only generally doing once or twice a game such as share guilt on a Guilty. Plus shared guilt has a trigger to draw a card so you can come out of doing that action with more cards than you started with. I will even sometimes cheat the flip on shared guilt even though it has succeeded to get the card cycling if I have a low  in hand.

Jack can be played as a beater or as a support piece and from my experience the trap is trying to play him as both at the same time. The other thing to remember about comparing him to our other killy masters is that Jack can ignore terrain when moving. Several times I have used this to get to a key model that my opponent thought was safely hidden behind a building only to have Jack walk once and then hit them twice with his noose to kill them. I am not saying that Jack is better at killing than the Viks as that would be wrong but he is better at killing stuff than many give him credit for.

[apes-ma]

On 07/02/2018 at 12:09 AM, Saduhem said:

There are just SO many moving parts.

Generally speaking other Masters with TNs make up for the cards needed in other ways. Kirai, for example, uses high cards to summon but the adversary conditions give + flips. Sandeep does the same, using the Gamins to get the + flips. Asami gives out focus. Collodi gives out focus and AP. 

Not as many moving parts as Parker, at least! Speaking of which, I don't know what it is that makes up for his high TNs and punishing additional costs...

 

On 07/02/2018 at 9:21 AM, PositronMike said:

I find his (0) on his base card so much more useful.

It is a great ability but I wish that it would affect Jack himself sometimes!

[McSkip]

Rules question:

Can Jack Daw with the new wave 5 upgrade "growing Injustice" attach the "suffocating injustice" cursed upgrade from the emisarry even when he (the emisarry) is not in the crew?

If yes, does something in Jack Daw`s rules prevent him to hand out this cursed upgrade?

[Nukemouse]

No, because it also has "emissary" in the attach requirements and growing injustice doesn't allow him to ignore those requirements.

Edit: See below, i am wrong.

[Cedar]

You can attach this curse to JD, as it was clarified in the FAQ:

38) Some Actions/Abilities allow models to attach Upgrades during the game. Do these Actions/Abilities need to adhere to the restrictions listed on the Upgrade, or can they be attached to any model? Upgrade restrictions only affect the hiring process, and have no in game effect, so these Upgrades may be attached to any model. If there are any restrictions they will be noted in the Action or Ability’s description. It is worth noting some such Actions and Abilities bother noting “ignoring restrictions” but this is simply reminder text which was put on when there was space available.

[izikial]

I think there is some potential with the growing injustice upgrade to make jd play in a unique style, each new guilty is able to torment something new 

A list useing jd with growing injustice and then some combination of writhing torment, betrayer and cursed life

Montressor with his two upgrades

A hanged

2 guilty

Then flavour to taste (i like dead outlaws)

Use guilty to give out tormented and gum people up (we dont mind them dieing unless it hurts the schemes so be liberal with them). Jd should be spaming out upgrades and tanking with betrayer or supporting with writhing torment. use montressor to paralize and debuff and pair him with the hanged eather accept paralysis or take lots of two damage pings.

Beater jd is great and effective but had no care with his crew comp

Twist and turn jd is a massive gimmick in my eyes

[McSkip]

@izikial thanks for your thoughts!

Maybe you could go a step further, deploying more guilty to act as meatshield. They have this cool ability so tormented models can shoot into combat. So JD handing out curses, Guilty as roadblocker and shooty models for the damage output, like Dead Outlaws

[izikial]

Thats sort of the idea yh. The jd curses make the dead outlaws hitnlike trucks. Personaly i like 2 curse upgrade start and 2 guilty. I find that balances about right

[izikial]

Another idea im working on is a scheme marker jd

Declared Faction: Outcasts 
Crew Name: jd schemes 50ss 
Leader: Jack Daw - Cache:(2)
   Writhing Torment 2ss 
   Cursed Life 1ss 
   Growing Injustice 1ss 
   Guillotine Injustice 0ss 
   Drowning Injustice 0ss 
Crooked Man 5ss 
Crooked Man 5ss 
Prospector 6ss 
Prospector 6ss 
The Guilty 4ss 
Desperate Mercenary 3ss 
Gluttony 8ss 
   The Creeping Terror 1ss 
Envy 8ss 
 

Use last wisper (cursed life will help us recupe our cards) and all your othere scheme marker tech to get makers out. (The recycled guilty are great for this) use writhing torment, driven by injustice or your other push tech to get people next to your markers then enjoy the unavoidable damage flips, gluttony is there to help with marker pushing and stuff. Envy loves to shoot at all the markers

The merc is just there for activations

The cache is tiny at 2 but jumps to 4 with the two prospectors and maybe 1 more with a dead merc

[McSkip]

So I started to use Jack Daw again. Little overview about the first game vs Reva:

Turn one nothing really happens.

Top of turn 2 Reva kills first guilty, I get the emissary curse. Jack kills a kentauroi, summons a guilty to lock Anna and carrion emisarry in place so they cant get in to my backfield to get my symbols. I played the midnight stalker really badly. He activated early to get the first symbol marker but gets smoked in return.

Turn 3 Jack walks out of combat with Anna and charges deep into enemy backfield into Reva. From there he slips through and gets 2 recover evidence markers. The rest of the crew locks Yin into place to get take prisoner.

game tied 6:6

If I played the midnight stalker better I could have won easily.

Thoughts:

The guilty and my 2 shooters lazarus and sue lock the enemy crew in place. The stalker runs up a flank and schemes. Jack does support duties the first few rounds providing pushes, handing out curses, killing little models and summoning more guilty. Turn 4 or 5 he slips through the enemy lines.

Need a lot more games, Jacks pushes and activation order are complicated. But I have a good feeling!

 

 

[McSkip]

Second game, now with list:

Jack Daw

writhing torment, growing injustice, bigger

Lazarus, oathkeeper

Sue, return fire

Marlena

3 Guiltys

Hodgepodge Effigy

vs. Hoffmann in Ply for information, schmes I took: undercover and set up on peacekeeper

win 6:1

highlights of the game:

sue and lazarus shot guardian to 2 wounds left, Jack charged in killed it (no guilty summon). second round, Joss took 2 SS to get his 2ap attack on Jack, inflicting 8 damage, ouch. Jack kills hunter summons guilty. One guilty and the effigy lay markers at the peacekeeper. jack and his guilty hold the whole Hoffman crew into place, he could only score one point for surround them. even if they managed to kill jack, he was protected with the tethered condition the whole game.

there were no shemes (appart from surround them) for Midnight stalker so I took Marlena

[beergod]

any other tries with this?

 

[McSkip]

Yes, one game vs colodi. Jack won because my opponent charged with hooded rider too soon and in round 2 with nekima instead of a combined charge in round 2.

The guilty forming a wall that doesnt fall so easy. They eat the first charge so that your damage dealer can clean up. In the process more guilty are summoned.

Further games with Jack after a tournament this weekend. I go with ressers so no games with Jack the last weeks.

[SlackerLM]

Was any one play testing Jack for 3e?

[Saduhem]

2 hours ago, SlackerLM said:

Was any one play testing Jack for 3e?

He was underwhelming at the beginning, then got a very interesting rework and is pretty fun. Guilty and more so Drowned and Dead Outlaws are probably going to have to change a bit but I'd say it's looking good!

[Nukemouse]

2 hours ago, Saduhem said:

He was underwhelming at the beginning, then got a very interesting rework and is pretty fun. Guilty and more so Drowned and Dead Outlaws are probably going to have to change a bit but I'd say it's looking good!

I only tested him a little but i'd have said the opposite. He was more engaging, but slowly had much of his cool stuff stripped away or nerfed. Guilty and Drowned are pretty amazing as is, i think Dead Outlaws are a little weak  though, yeah.

[Saduhem]

1 hour ago, Nukemouse said:

I only tested him a little but i'd have said the opposite. He was more engaging, but slowly had much of his cool stuff stripped away or nerfed. Guilty and Drowned are pretty amazing as is, i think Dead Outlaws are a little weak  though, yeah.

I found that Drowned depended too much on Daw using his actions to move them around. With all the engagement the tormented do, his projectile wasn't meaningful after the startle change, and Mv4 is rough on a melee model.
After 2 games against Daw, my opponent just hired a good minion (like Rougarou) to take the Guilty off the board permanently, put a single poison on it, or waited till end of turn 2-3 to kill one in any other way. After that, combing back from the deployment zone meant they weren't really in the game anymore. Really do like their new attack though. 
Anyway, things could be completely different when the new files release. 
@Kolath had an amazing idea to make the Guilty mechanic meaningful and thematic. I'm hoping he'll bring it to the attention of the public in the Open Beta!

[Nukemouse]

Even if killed by a minion, you still get the extra hand size and they have strong actions and stats for their cost already.

[Saduhem]

12 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

Even if killed by a minion, you still get the extra hand size and they have strong actions and stats for their cost already.

This might be just my experience, but they always get taken off the board after 2 attacks. Can't wait to keep testing after the new files are in though!