gideonrav Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Model A performs an action without triggers but controlled by model B (for example: collodi with "my bidding"). Model A can charge as (1) action, so model B choose to charge. Could attacks caused by charge declare triggers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jonahmaul Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 The Obey is causing another action, therefore the Obey is not resolved until the model that was targeted resolves the chosen (1) Action. Since it is nested inside the original enemy action, it is an enemy action that is trying to move it, thus it fails. This is my thinking too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Fetid Strumpet Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Gremlin guy Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Maybe its my familiarity with other systems that's kicking in here, but I don't think Laugh off would work against obey. Here is my reasoning: Does obey move a model? Answer:No So what happens when obey is cast assuming it's successful? (Here is a fluffy answer): Zoraida whispers into Sidir's mind 'come closer.' Sidir thinks to himself 'hey, that's a wonderful idea.' Sidir then takes a walk action. Obey didn't move Sidir, obey caused him to take a one action. Sidir took that action, which was a walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 rgarbonzo Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Actions causing actions should be broken down as follows 1. Initial Action (in this specific case Obey) a. Target takes a (1) Action b. resolve targets (1) Action After the (1) Action that the target model took is resolved then the Obey is completely resolved. So in this case Obey would not work on Laugh Off beacause, as I have illustrated, it is caused by an enemy action which is not resolved until the targets chosen (1) Action is resolved completely, triggers and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Gremlin guy Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Do you have the wording for laugh off? I do not so I am operating under the assumption it is something like model can't be moved by an enemy action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 rgarbonzo Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Laugh Off: This model may not be moved or pushed by enemy model’s Abilities or Actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Gremlin guy Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Simple enough. Obey doesn't move or push. It causes a model to take a (1) action. If that action is walk, it is not an enemy action, it is a friendly action, completed by a friendly model. Consider Frame for Murder The scheming player notes one of her own non-Peon models as the "sucker." If the chosen "sucker" model is Killed or Sacrificed by an enemy model, score 1 VP. If the enemy model was a Master or Henchman, score 2 VP instead. As soon as this Scheme is accomplished, reveal it. If it was accomplished before Turn 4, score 1 additional VP. This Scheme may not be revealed at the start of the game. If I obey your model to kill my sucker, an enemy model has killed my sucker and I get the points. This is because it is the enemy models (1) action killed my guy. Obey is written differently than, say, Lure. Lure pushes a model its walk (I think). It directly moves the model. Lure is stopped by Laugh Off because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ludvig Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 But the model is not being moved by an enemy action or ability. The Model is being moved by a friendly action, (1) walk. So yes you can "obey" a 'laugh off' model; and move them. It is about the only way to move them because the movement is not the result of an enemy action or ability, its the result of a Friendly action (Which was caused by an enemy action) Hadn't read obey closely for a while so had to edit. So the question we need to ask - would the model with laugh off have moved at this time if an enemy action or ability had not targeted it? If the answer is no I would assume that an enemy action made it move and thus laugh off cancels it. I can however see how you would argue the opposite and I am far from sure of the intent in this case. Had laugh off been worded with just "enemy action" it would have been clear cut. The difference with Frame is that it doesn't mention "enemy-controlled model", just "enemy model". However, the few model's that make the enemy count as friendly could muck up this scheme if they themselves were the sucker I guess. Comes down to timing in that case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ludvig Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Maybe its my familiarity with other systems that's kicking in here, but I don't think Laugh off would work against obey. Here is my reasoning: Does obey move a model? Answer:No So what happens when obey is cast assuming it's successful? (Here is a fluffy answer): Zoraida whispers into Sidir's mind 'come closer.' Sidir thinks to himself 'hey, that's a wonderful idea.' Sidir then takes a walk action. Obey didn't move Sidir, obey caused him to take a one action. Sidir took that action, which was a walk. The problem with the fluff is that anyone can argue that Sidir just laughs it off and say "Sidir hears ya! Sidir don't care!" The other argument is very compelling though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 trikk Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Simple enough. Obey doesn't move or push. It causes a model to take a (1) action. If that action is walk, it is not an enemy action, it is a friendly action, completed by a friendly model. Its not a friendly action as no friendly model decides where I go. The opponent does. Wouldn`t call that a friendly action. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Adran Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I've read your reasonn, I just still disagree with it. Yes, Actions causing actions means the Obey has not ended until the action caused by the obey is complete. That does not mean any of the abilities or conditions that would effect the obey would effect the action that the Obey has causes. Obey allows the model to make an action. whilst this action is controlled by the player that cast the obey, the action is made by the model itself. The model is friendly to itself. Therefore the model is moving as aa result of an action that is made by a model that is friednly to it. The Action is the Walk action. The model friednl;y to it is itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jonahmaul Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I am also of the opinion that Sidir would hear the voice and say 'don't think so cowbag'. It's still an enemy action (Obey) that is causing them to take a (1) Wk action and so is attempting to move them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 trikk Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I am also of the opinion that Sidir would hear the voice and say 'don't think so cowbag'. It's still an enemy action (Obey) that is causing them to take a (1) Wk action. I totally disagree. Sidir would never call someone 'cowbag' :< 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Fetid Strumpet Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I agree with rgarbanzo. Too many people are trying to use cinematic reasons to justify why an obey can move sidir because sidir is the one doing the walk. Sidir has no personality or agency in the game, at base, other than the mechanics. He isn't a person, mechanically he is a game piece. The enemy player uses obey, and THE ENEMY PLAYER controls the movement of Sidir. Is it an enemy action affecting sidir? Yes Is the enemy action causing sidir to take a walk action? Yes Is the enemy player controlling the walk action? Yes Therefore it is an enemy action causing movement which laugh off specifically prevents. Trying to argue that it's Sidir taking the action is total nonsense, because Sidir's player isn't controlling the action. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Adran Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 There is a difference between target model moves its Walk, and target model takes a walk action. If I obeyed a model to take a once per turn action can the model take that action when it activates? No, Because that model has already performed that action once this turn. So its not total nonsense that it is Sidir Taking the action, Its what the spell says. (Want to avoid cinematic examples are they are of no use what so ever, but its amusing that people think you can potentially obey a Sidir to kill his best friend, who he happily throws himself in the way of bullets for normally, but you can't make him walk forward 3 steps. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Fetid Strumpet Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 What caused Sidir to take a walk action? Was it an enemy action? Yes? Then it was an enemy action causing Sidir to move, so it doesn't work. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 gideonrav Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Well, and if an enemy model moves close and sidir walks away because he hates enemies, then an enemy actions is causing sidir moves, and nobody would say that he cant move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jonahmaul Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Because Sidir had activated and generated his own AP to make his own choices with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Fetid Strumpet Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Nothing is causing it in that sense other than narrative. The move there is entirely volentary because sidir's player controls the move. Rgarbanzo spelled out the sequence exceptionally well, and I have pointed out that the fact of who is controlling the theoretical move more than cements the way the rules interact. If you want to interpret it differently for your group, more power to you. You should play the game in the way it is the most fun for you. However I, and I feel most TOs, though maybe not all, would interpret the rule as not allowing obey to cause Sidir to walk. As every argument against that interpretation is flimsy, and requires either cinematic, personificational, or other non-mechanical arguments for why it does work, I believe I'm out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 gideonrav Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Obey is an enemy action controled by enemy crew, walk is a friendly action controled by enemy crew. The action which causes sidir move is the walk action not the obey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 trikk Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I believe "cannot be moved by enemy models actions/abilities" means that he only moves when he wants to, it can be direct(Lure) or indirect(Obey) but I`d say Laugh off works in both situations. Also the interpretation for this is: If you wouldn`t cast Obey Sidir wouldn`t be move, right? So he is being moved by an enemy model`s Action If the rules would have to include all possibilities like "Cannot be moved by enemy actions or friendly actions caused by enemy actions" the cards would probably have to be more than 2x bigger. I believe the general approach to this is: Sidir (or any other model with Laugh Off) moves when he wants. Also, please give me a definition of a "friendly action"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jonahmaul Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 The action that caused Sidir to take a walk is 'chosen and controlled by this model's controller'. Therefore it's not a Walk action that is causing Sidir to walk, it's the Obey action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 gideonrav Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Friendly actions: Actions performed by friendly models. Enemy actions: Action performed by enemy models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 trikk Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Performed or controlled? If I Obey your model and shoot your other model its a friendly action by your standards. If controlled then we go to the point of: who decides where Sidir goes? The caster of the Obey. So am I being moved by a action controlled by a friendly model? Nope, the caster controls where and how far I go, so its a move controlled by an enemy model. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 gideonrav Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I think is performed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Question
gideonrav
Model A performs an action without triggers but controlled by model B (for example: collodi with "my bidding"). Model A can charge as (1) action, so model B choose to charge. Could attacks caused by charge declare triggers?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Top Posters For This Question
10
9
9
9
Popular Days
Jun 9
26
Jun 10
9
Jun 1
6
Jun 8
6
Top Posters For This Question
trikk 10 posts
rgarbonzo 9 posts
Gremlin guy 9 posts
gideonrav 9 posts
Popular Days
Jun 9 2015
26 posts
Jun 10 2015
9 posts
Jun 1 2015
6 posts
Jun 8 2015
6 posts
Popular Posts
Kadeton
You're right, it doesn't. Nor does it have to - "this Action", if you're going by the letter of the rules, includes all the Actions which are part of that Action. I'm not particularly opposed to your
rgarbonzo
My Bidding: After damaging target non-Leader, the target immediately performs a (1) Action chosen and controlled by this model's controller. This Action may not declare Triggers A (1) Charge action
rgarbonzo
Okay I will take one more opportunity to try and explain why Obey is an enemy action that cannot move Sidir. In order to do so we need to familiarize ourselves with three things 1. Sidir's Laugh Off
62 answers to this question
Recommended Posts