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SurreyLee

Ill Omens - Rules Query

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Okay, if this has cropped up before apologies.

 

So, last night me and a friend had a Lynch/Lilith off. We both took Doppelganger. Now, Ill Omens allows to cheat initiative before either side uses a soulstone. Who cheats first? It would seem unfair for one to declare cheating before the other as it would also seem unfair that the person losing the duel cheats first due to giving the other player an immense advantage. 

 

In the end we wrote on a scrap of paper whether we would cheat.....we both agreed to cheat.....then we both cheated face down so as to avoid any unfair advantage.

 

What do y'all think?

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I would go on normal duel ettiquette. Lose cheats first, then winner cheats if they want to.

Yes it gives an advantage to the person winning, but not quite as much as they would have had if neitehr of you had Ill omens.

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My only issue with that is, the rule states that you may cheat. Now, if the first person (the current loser in the duel) decides to cheat, the winner then may feel compelled to cheat in order to maintain the advantage. At that point, the first person can cheat a low(ish) card just to make the second person and original winner cheat to if nothing else, burn a card. If the second person declares not to cheat, then the first person knows they may only have to beat the original flip by one to win, unopposed. 

 

Obviously this won't come up often, but i had a similar scenario against a Gremlin player who had Trixie (from memory) who has a very similar ability (if not the same).

 

Seems very clunky, that's all.

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I don't see how that is any different form any duel. Why would he be compelled to cheat any more than with any duel during the turn?

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Yeah....quite possibly we were both trying to make it harder than it needed to be. 

 

Gaming on a school night can have its disadvantages.

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My only issue with that is, the rule states that you may cheat. Now, if the first person (the current loser in the duel) decides to cheat, the winner then may feel compelled to cheat in order to maintain the advantage. At that point, the first person can cheat a low(ish) card just to make the second person and original winner cheat to if nothing else, burn a card. If the second person declares not to cheat, then the first person knows they may only have to beat the original flip by one to win, unopposed. 

 

Obviously this won't come up often, but i had a similar scenario against a Gremlin player who had Trixie (from memory) who has a very similar ability (if not the same).

 

Seems very clunky, that's all.

Why would you cheat secretly? I don't think Expert Cheater would apply, the Doppleganger allows the crew to cheat so it isn't a model cheating.

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I understand from the text they did that so neither would gain a benefit from the cheating sequence.

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I agree with Dirial. This is no different to a normal duel or burning a SS to re-flip initiative. Sometimes I do it just to force a SS/Card out of my opponent if they have less resources than me. It's the risk you take when spending resources, sometimes they are wasted because of your opponent. Keep it simple and keep the flow of the game going. 

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While the Initiative Flip is not technically a duel, cheating would seem to follow the rules for cheating in an opposed duel.

So if both players have a model with Ill Omens, Initiative goes as follows:

Step 1: Flip For Initiative:
As normal.

Step 1.5: Cheating (due to Ill Omens)
Compare Initiative totals.
The player with the lowest total has the first opportunity to cheat or pass.
Then, the other player has the opportunity to cheat or pass in response to the results of the losing player's cheat/pass.
(Remember that a player flipping the Black Joker cannot cheat, and a player flipping the Red Joker prevents their opponent from cheating.)

Step 2: Use Soulstones
Once both players have cheated or passed, compare totals again.
The player with the lower total has the option to spend a soulstone to re-flip. This will replace any cheated card.
Then, the other player has the option to spend a soulstone to re-flip in response to the results of the losing player's re-flip. This will replace any cheated card.
(Remember that Jokers have no effect on whether you can re-flip Initiative.)

Step 3: Determine First Player
As normal, based on the final Initiative values generated.

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The rules don't exactly say that the loser of the initial flip has to cheat first, but as his opponent has very little incentive to cheat first, that is likely what's going to happen.

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The rules don't exactly say that the loser of the initial flip has to cheat first, but as his opponent has very little incentive to cheat first, that is likely what's going to happen.

 

That is also true. :D 

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