Theoryfauxing Pandora

[Patzer]

Pandora can reduce two to three of your models ap to 0 every turn, without killing them. Including masters, henchmen, and other important models of the opposing crew. In most cases, it is fairly hard recover from.

[admiralvorkraft]

I will say that, even playing Guild with relatively few action-chains, having to activate out of order can be a huge problem for me. This is where Pandora as a flanker really pays off - she can Incite models that are on the off-flank or otherwise away from the main action which guarantees the main body of her crew a couple of activations before I can do anything about them.

 

But that's just speaking as someone who has played against her a couple of times.

[Joel]

since she can do that from 12" away, she doesn't really need to on a flank too much either

[Patzer]

Joel, you did an excellent piece on Pandora on your blog, and talked about her at length on Malifools, but that was in the beginning 2.0. I will make a humble request for a new blog entry or pod on Pandora

[TehMik]

Joel, you did an excellent piece on Pandora on your blog, and talked about her at length on Malifools, but that was in the beginning 2.0. I will make a humble request for a new blog entry or pod on Pandora

 

[Carcosa]

which podcast?
 

[Patzer]

Malifools, and I think that their site is down. Fear not! I got the episode saved on my computer. I saved episode 50-60 of the show since it was the time when I really got into the game, and it is also the best stretch of the show (in my humble opinion). If you got google Drive or Dropbox I can send it to you. PM me!

[Joel]

sure - we will cover her on school of faux and I can certainly write some more blog about her.

 

I used her 2/3 games at Heartfaux this weekend (headhunter vs. Marcus and interference vs. Hamelin) and my love of her has not diminished.

[Patzer]

Outstanding Joel! I am particularly interested in if you still are fond of the Sorrows, or if they have been replaced by Iggy and Insidious Madnesses.

[Joel]

I went away from sorrows for a long while, but they are now back in - and double team with the insidious madnesses.  I'm current favouring a pair of each backing up candy, doppleganger and Pandora with the pmagic and upgrades rounding out the crew.

 

one of the 4 smaller minions, either a madness or a sorrow, pool dependent, drops if required and candy can become any other hitter too.

 

common swap-ins are:

 

widow weaver

bad juju

bishop

barbaros

kade

teddy

[Tayne]

Hey Joel, awesome that you're doing this and I'm very interested to hear you speak about Pandora with the latest Gaining Grounds scenarios/wave 2 models etc. Just wondered, would it help if we compiled specific questions we had for you such as "is it ever worth taking the Poltergeist over Primordial Magic?" or what have you?

[Carcosa]

@ Therril and Tehmik

 

Sorry for taking so long to get back to your comments.

 

Regarding the Illuminated, I agree with both of you on just how strong they are, but I am wondering their use in the crew I have described -as a concept-. Healing themselves via regen and brillshaper is indeed awesome, and they are manuverable and hit like bricks with an effective 10" engagement range on a charge, but I wonder if Pandora is the best master to go with them. The way I see it, Lynch and Lucius both support them far better than Pandora. I could definitely see them being useful if Pandora was being used to hand out paralysis, but not so much in a "box opens WP duel" type build.

 

As for beckoners, IF I went the illuminated route, again I would concur with both of you as they not only fulfil the lure position, but hand out brilliance to enhance the illuminated as well. I think however that is a separate kind of build strategy, one that uses Pandora as a hitwoman rather than a supporting role.

 

Something akin to this:

Pandora + Fears given form + Voices + Fugue state

Primordial Magic

Iggy

x2 Beckoners

x2 Illuminated

x2 Depleted

[Patzer]

You don't need to go with a brilliance themed crew with Pandora. The Illuminated works very well as a pair. If you can squeeze in a Beckoner, that is great, but not mandatory. Beckoners are great with Pandora for two reasons: lure, and their shooting attack. The latter becomes very strong with Misery around to buff it. The fact that they buff Illuminated is just gravy.

 

I often used them with Box+Fears Pandora (my take on "hit-woman Pandora"), and they work great. They hunt in pairs and do their own thing. They don't have any particular synergies with the rest of the crew. Granted, they benefit from Weavers markers, etc.

[Carcosa]

@ patzer

Forgive me, but we are back to my first crew with having lilitu as a lure, and the doppelganger being able to copy it to achieve that need for the crew and not being concerned with brilliance as an attack vector.

 

I am really wondering if people are actually looking at the original list as it stands, or commenting on the mods other people have suggested.

Quite frankly, I appreciate the suggestion of mods to the core list, but I find no value in considering adjustments to the adjustments of the core crew.

It is not meant as any form of disrespect, but is -is- sorta useless. if your thought is "this works if you used Lillith instead", you are missing the point. 

[Dirial]

I am really wondering if people are actually looking at the original list as it stands, or commenting on the mods other people have suggested.

Quite frankly, I appreciate the suggestion of mods to the core list, but I find no value in considering adjustments to the adjustments of the core crew.

It is not meant as any form of disrespect, but is -is- sorta useless. if your thought is "this works if you used Lillith instead", you are missing the point. 

 

Well, if you want thoughts on your list, you'll have to live with people bouncing ideas of each other.

[zFiend]

Well, if you want thoughts on your list, you'll have to live with people bouncing ideas of each other.

Usually they help other people too.

[Carcosa]

@ Dirial

I have no issue with people bouncing idea's, I welcome them.

What I do not fin useful is people discussing a separate list and discussing the flaws or benefits of -that- list.

Beat my list to a bloody pulp, point out it's flaws and I will welcome it.

Tell me about a separate list and I will not care in this instance.

[Dirial]

But I have not seen that. Someone said that Pandora runs well with Illuminated. You rejected the idea, and it was pointed out why it works. That is an alternative to your list, I admit, but what are you expecting if you want your list to be improved? Just your list, but better? That makes no sense.

 

But I won't argue your point. It's your thread after all. Have you tried your list yet? Does it work?

[Patzer]

@ patzer

Forgive me, but we are back to my first crew with having lilitu as a lure, and the doppelganger being able to copy it to achieve that need for the crew and not being concerned with brilliance as an attack vector.

 

I am really wondering if people are actually looking at the original list as it stands, or commenting on the mods other people have suggested.

Quite frankly, I appreciate the suggestion of mods to the core list, but I find no value in considering adjustments to the adjustments of the core crew.

It is not meant as any form of disrespect, but is -is- sorta useless. if your thought is "this works if you used Lillith instead", you are missing the point. 

I don't really get your argument here. As for the original list, I have already made some suggestions to it. My other post were an attempt to flesh out some of the aspects of why Illuminated are great with Pandora even if you don't want to go brilliance heavy.

[Carcosa]

@ Dirial

I did not reject illuminated at all, I pointed out that they work more effectively in a brilliance list, or with different masters to support them as an overall strategy.

I don't mind that at all, but the illuminated beatstick strategy, while effective, is not what I was speaking to in the slightest.

I am not "dissing" your idea's, but I am trying to look at them within the confines of a WP based denial strategy, and the illuminated just don't fill that role, they do a different role.

 

Have I tried the list yet?

No, I have not because I am theorising about a concept and I get few opportunities to play. The next time I get to play, I would love to try out this concept however.

[Carcosa]

@ Patzer

 

Your first recommendation was to turn it into a beatstick list, which has nothing to do with a control concept, are you surprised I disagree with you?

 

I don't disagree with your -idea's-, I disagree with their use in a control list.

[lusciousmccabe]

Not considering something because of lack of synergy is a bit of a trap sometimes. For example I'm forever running Johan in lists that either can't or don't want to make use of his condition removal or M&SU buffs. You might think that not using half the card is a drawback, but if the other half is worth the cost it's irrelevant. 

 

In my experience going "all in" with Pandora can also be a trap. It gives you a very strong A game, but as soon as someone starts to dismantle it you have little recourse. Being heavily reliant on wp based synergy makes attrition hurt more, because each cog in the the engine gets weaker when one is removed. Add to this the fact that your list is effectively under-powered when you don't have the correct set up and you really have to get a big pay-off from that synergy to make up for it. 

 

You're probably better off putting aside some of your points for things that are simply strong in their own right (Illuminated happen to fall into this category) so that you're not relying on one game-plan for everything. As a random figure I'd say go for 25-35 stones worth of models towards the wp based denial and keep the rest for upgrades, pool and contingency plan. 

 

If you want to figure out what the actual optimal ratio is for you the only way to do it is to play a few games starting at one end and work towards the other.

[Patzer]

In your original post you wrote: "At -this- point, I am not so much looking at schemes and strats as I feel that the only kinds of ones I would be inclined to bring her along with would be the various "take and hold" kinds of missions, at least initially till I get a feel for her style."

 

My "beatstick-list" suggestion contains as much (if not more) "denial" as your original list, and its got a good balance between attacking defense as well as will power. The latter is something nearly every poster in this thread have also said is something that is very important for Pandora.

 

Back to the denial thing, a "denial-Pandora" is in general Pandora with Voices and or (any other combination) with Fugue State. While what you sought in your original post was, as you can see in the quote above, "take and hold missions". This is, in general, something different to "denial", since it is referring to staying power and hitting power. It was in this light I made my original list. So yes, I am quite surprised that you are disagreeing with me. Worth to note, personally I do not consider my list as a beat stick list.

Also this, "I am not "dissing" your idea's, but I am trying to look at them within the confines of a WP based denial strategy, and the illuminated just don't fill that role, they do a different role." They can do that, I promise, even without Beckoners.

 

So I guess it all boils down to this, when you say that you want a control-list is that the same thing as "take and hold missions"-list? All and all, it seems that has been plenty of misunderstandings of what kind of advice you want.

[Adran]

@ Dirial

I did not reject illuminated at all, I pointed out that they work more effectively in a brilliance list, or with different masters to support them as an overall strategy.

I don't mind that at all, but the illuminated beatstick strategy, while effective, is not what I was speaking to in the slightest.

I am not "dissing" your idea's, but I am trying to look at them within the confines of a WP based denial strategy, and the illuminated just don't fill that role, they do a different role.

 

Have I tried the list yet?

No, I have not because I am theorising about a concept and I get few opportunities to play. The next time I get to play, I would love to try out this concept however.

 

If only there was a relatively cheap model that forced WP test to target it.

Hmm, lets say a terryfying model.Now if it has another use, probably one that allows your list (which is a Paper list) to work against the  Scissors list of High Wp or immunity to them, then that would probably be pretty handy in a Wp based denial list.

 

Your list as it currently stands is very focused in 1 area, and there are some models that will just laugh against that area, and rip you apart. You probably need to diversify the list.

Imagine your current list against a Decembers acolyte. What can it do? Almost nothing.

 

 

PS the answer to the first question can be Illuminated

[Therril_83]

Whenever I start looking at a model and think of ways to use it, most of the time it's new models being released, but it can be a new perspective to an existing one as well, I start by looking at synergies and how it combines with other models. That often gives me wild ideas of things the models could do, and gets me all excited for a new build. But then my next step is another criteria I have come to put on my models: it has to be able to perform and do "something" on its own. And thirdly it has to have a cost I'm willing to pay for all that.

 

That's why some models fall for me, its because they are like 70-90% synergy models that perform together with others. But if that other model gets removed it underperforms severly.

 

That's why I tend to not take too many Sorrows or Madnesses, because they don't do enough on their own. I take a few, because they can scheme run and such pretty well, but not too many.

 

That's also why I personally don't like Candy. Because her auras and her denial is freaking incredible, but remove Pandora from the equation, and you have a 9ss model with Ca5 that does bugger all on her own, unless your opponent for some reason runs his models up to her for the fun of it...  (again, my own experiences, I know others like her)

 

And that's why I'm the evangelist of Illuminated and Beckoners. They are just such solid models that happen to synergise well with Pandora the way I play her.