Theoryfauxing Pandora

[Carcosa]

So, I have Pandora as I got her as an individual model as I had already bought Lucius and Lynch as boxes and figured why not get another master as I was getting neverborn models anyway and I started really considering her as the next master I would like to give a whirl. As is my wont, I started toying around with a generic list first to get some idea of the interactions between various models and what she brings as a unique master to the table.

 

At -this- point, I am not so much looking at schemes and strats as I feel that the only kinds of ones I would be inclined to bring her along with would be the various "take and hold" kinds of missions, at least initially till I get a feel for her style.

 

The list as it stands right now is for 50 SS which is what I normally play is as follows:

 

Pandora with Fugue State, The box opens and Fears given form

Primordial magic

Candy with Nexus of power and Fears given form

Doppleganger with Depression

Iggy

Lilitu

Mr Tannen

x1 Sorrow

 

Soul stone cache of 4.

 

Initial thoughts:

All the models except for the Primordial magic are Woe's, which allows both Pandora and Iggy to act as a level of "ablative armour" in order to increase the survivability of the crew and offsets some of the range issues with Candy and her heal range; and the addition of nexus can provide an additional 2 healing if I need to spend a soulstone for a suit or such for Pandora. Obviously this requires everyone to be "bunched" to a certain degree which is bad if I am expecting people with lots of blasts such as Sonnia.

 

Dealing with shooting is a another issue, which will depend mainly on the terrain and my use of it, but there is also the defence of the terror from Pandora, and the conditional defence of manipulative from Candy, Tannen, and the doppleganger. It's hardly perfect, but it is another defensive layer that I would not otherwise get, and helps shore up all the low DF from a few of the models.  

 

As for dealing with scheme runners, this is somewhat of a glaring hole as the crew wants to be bunched togeather mostly, and the only options are to lure them back in if possible, or make them insignificant with either Pandora, the Primordial magic or having the doppleganger clone the primordials 1 action, which puts pressure on the Doppleganger to either be a lure, or making people insignificant.

 

When it comes to Melee, quite frankly the carded actions on all the models is sub-par except for the fact that I hope to be making people beat themselves up with Pandora, Candy, and the (poor confused) doppelganger via self loathing, and abusing the heck out of fears given form and the rather large melee engagement range of the crew if they try to run away, or just blow AP's beating on my models.

 

These are all my initial thoughts on the crew, but I would really appreciate any insight from other Pandora players (or theorycrafters) on how to make it a more effective crew, be they things I have missed, or things I am overestimating being possible.

 

 

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I find when I play pandora that you will want a higher cache.

I still think Nexus has a place, but you are aware of its errata, yes? I tend to find that useless duplications works better on her. So I'd swap Nexus for that.

Everything else comes down to schemes and strats.

As an aside I am also a fan of the double fears given form, but you need to be REALLY careful with your positioning of pandora with candy having a copy. Pandora can't use her wp to defend and if you position badly pandora can really take it bad from tht upgrade. Be especially careful against crews that can control the movement of your crew.

[Carcosa]

@ Fetid strumpet

 

How high a cache would you recommend F.S.? I actually think I am leaning heavily to agreeing with you, but I am not sure what to ditch without compromising the concept. The sorrow could go, as it is a force multiplier more than anything else, and if I can force 2-4 WP checks Pandora can do the job of that without needing that extra push. Tannen is the other thing I could loose, but the cooler effect is superior to insidious madness by 2" and has a far broader application for the 1 SS difference.

 

With Nexus, no, I am not aware of the errata, but I would like to be made aware!!

 

As for fears given form, am I missing more errata to it? your concern seems irrelevant as it is not an opposed check, but a straight DF 14 check by the opponent and has nothing to do with Pandora's crap defence.

 

When it comes to being moved out of postion by lures and obey type stuff, yeah, I agree 100% it can be vunerable to it, but I just don't know what I could do given that kind I crew. I can stay out of LOS and not worry, but damage my own offence, or I can hope that the various terrors and manipulative with either defend, or force card drops to get the actions through.

 

I am more than open to suggestions to cover these holes however!!

[Kadeton]

Nexus errata is in the official Errata and FAQ.

 

Be aware that Fears Given Form applies to all models within engagement range (maximum melee range), not just enemy models. If Candy stands near Pandora (or the enemy pushes them near each other), they will have to test for each others' auras, and Pandora sucks at it.

[Gitli]

As always lists are very dependent on the schemes and strategy available. In my opinion, having the 1 sorrow is very worth it. With Pandora's Inflict tactical action you are potebtially handing out 3 damage each to a group of opponents. Given she can do this 3 times, it can be huge. I have started coupling her with an insidious madness to devastating effect. In my opinion the insidious madness is worth more to this crew than iggy purely because it makes cheating those inflict WP duels a really touch choice as it will burn your hand in a flash. Even with a full hand you could only cheat 3 times and assuming you can get Pandora into a group of your opponents models they could be making a lot if difficult decisions. Coupled with the fears given form upgrade they will be needing to flip a lot if high cards or they'll end up in a bad way.

I managed to get Candy and Pandora each with fears given form, an insidious and a sorrow all in the midst of Seamus, Sybelle, Bette Noire, Mad Hatter and 2 rotten belles.

It was absolutely savage. But I had to be very careful with my model placement otherwise it would start forcing me to have to pass those fears given form checks on my own models.

[Carcosa]

@ Kadeton

 

Yes, the distinction in fears given form has just been brought to my attention, which makes it more of a hindrance than a help when I want candy to serve as the healer for the ablative armour aspect of the crew.

 

I could drop both and increase the pool to 6? or should I look at other upgrades?

 

 

BTW, -this- is exactly why I ask for help when theorising crews, and I am very grateful for people pointing out where I have not considered stuff!!

[PraetorDragoon]

Nexus of Power:  “Friendly models in 6 heal 1 damage after resolving an Action in which they spent one or more Soulstones on something other than a damage prevention flip.”

 

I'm not a fan of fear given forms because it also affects friendly models. So if you bunch up too much, you might end up hurting yourself more. 

 

Weak point of this crew is blasts. If you face those, better take them out first. 

[Dirial]

Fears is great on Pandora if you use her as a solo hunter. If you go for a deathball approach, it can be a hindrance. I'd try it once or twice in your place.

[Carcosa]

@Gitli

Well that is why I chose Tannen, he has a longer reach with his "draw to cheat" bubble than insidious via cooler, but only costs 1 more SS. Hell, you can combine both and see people totally flounder just to play a card for the same cost as the Sorrow!! It becomes an issue if doing damage for failure is preferable to theoretically stopping cheating within the bubble. 

 

As to Iggy, he really only serves one purpose, to be an additional level of ablation with his martyr ability, and if I get lucky, to throw a fit to reduce enemy WP. The rest of his tricks are conditional.

[Carcosa]

@PD

 

Cheers for the clarification!!

Nexus will still work the way I intend even with that errata, without it, it could prove broken. (2 from nexus, 1 from another upgrade and then the prevent flip)

 

As to blasts, Yeah, agree with you entirely, blasts suck for that crew!

[Carcosa]

@ Dirial

 

As I intend to have candy within 2" of Pandora at all times, fears given form seems to be a non starter as it breaks the idea of the crew.

[Dirial]

@ Dirial

 

As I intend to have candy within 2" of Pandora at all times, fears given form seems to be a non starter as it breaks the idea of the crew.

 

You'd give up a lot of Pandora's incredible mobility, though.

[Carcosa]

Yes I do to a limited extent. Candy can just walk twice and still have the extra AP for the heal cast if needed, but I very much get your point.

 

Pandora is mobile, very mobile, but I -feel- she needs support. Perdita is dead hard and mobile "on first glance" but I have lost her a few times for overextending her and not having support, and my feeling is Pandora is about the same, but Pandora is even more lynchpin.

 

Keep slagging away people, it makes me think more!!

[bertmac]

One of our group takes aether connection on pandy giving her ss prevention flips of 2-4 with her high defensive value thats a lot of prevention with stones as i dont believe she needs a lot of suits from stones.

[Carcosa]

@bertmac

a lot of her really cool abilities require duel suits that are not included, so I can see myself burning stones for them as well, but yes, she can get a good deal for healing out of one stone.

 

Is it better to hold the stones for the cache, or to spend them on the abilities?

[vulky]

If I play aggresive Pandora I use Fears, Box and Aether, with at least 6 stone mainly for prevention (only other use would be to get an extra incite on the trigger).

This works best vs multiple low wp enemies as you can probably engage 3 or more models, while they cant reach you, they have to duel 14 df just to activate, pass terrifying 13 to move closer or attack you, or try to walk away vs you ca7 (and get 1 damage). If you are charged, use high card to push away from range (but keep them engaged) so they lose the charge, if they shoot you and hit you, stone immediately to keep your wounds as high as possible... After a while they just ignore Pandora and give up in those 20+ss worth of models. Also add cover from a Waldgeist if possible.

 

If you want to play control pandora use Voices and whatever else you want, you will have to play from far as you will be spending stones on crows and won't be able to stone prevention. This way you can neutralize a couple models per turn: win initiative, incite a model engaged with candy, charge or shoot another model, ca7 vs wp, instant paralyze if crow (which you add)... You will need high cards and stones for this to work but making a master lose 3 turns in a game can be the win.

 

 

Now to the specifics of the list in different Strats:

-Candy with Fears and Best Behavior is just not going to be moved from the point in Turf War, or a couple of them in Squatters.

-Doppleganger with a defensive upgrade will guarantee 1 point per turn in Turf War paired with Candy, can also interact for Squatters or plant explosives in a big fight.

-Tannen is just going to be another layer of annoyance in an area, if Turf War the opponent will lose every fight there. Might actually be overkill with Dopple, you may need the ss for something else.

-The Sorrow I would drop every time for a Terror Tot, the Sorrow could only be usefull if Turf vs melee crew, the Tot can be in his deployment zone turn 1 for planting in turn 2+, also you get a ss.

-Lilitu I've never tried.

-For Reckoning you need less models and tougher, no Sorrow no Tannen (imo), add Teddy, Bishop, Mature Nephilim, Kade because of Teddy (and 5/6/8 Ml7 EZ).

-For Reconnoitier get at least 3 Tots.

-Add Waldgeist every game.

 

This is what I can say from playing Pandora for a while, best advice ever is to not prebuild lists. 

[Patzer]

At -this- point, I am not so much looking at schemes and strats as I feel that the only kinds of ones I would be inclined to bring her along with would be the various "take and hold" kinds of missions, at least initially till I get a feel for her style.

 

The list as it stands right now is for 50 SS which is what I normally play is as follows:

 

Pandora with Fugue State, The box opens and Fears given form

Primordial magic

Candy with Nexus of power and Fears given form

Doppleganger with Depression

Iggy

Lilitu

Mr Tannen

x1 Sorrow

 

You have a lot of Mimics in that list, give Useless Duplications a look. Its quite good.

 

In most games you will get more mileage out of Aether Connection, but Fugue State is very good in Stake a Claim, Squatter's Rights, and Headhunter.

Something that is really lacking in your list is hitting power. Besides Pandora, Candy, and the Doppelgangers potentially good damage you will not get models into the ground quick enough.

Here is a tip for another generic Pandora list that have more hitting power. It is best played in what you described "take and hold" games. It can definitely still spread out. Most models can function by themselves or form a nasty 1-2 punch, like Baby Kade and Teddy.

 

Neverborn Crew - 50 - Scrap

Pandora -- 6 Pool

 +Aether Connection [1]

 +Fears Given Form [1]

 +The Box Opens [2]

Primordial Magic [2]

Baby Kade [7]

Candy [9]

 +Fears Given Form [1]

Doppleganger [7]

 +Useless Duplications [1]

Sorrow [5]

Teddy [11]

 

You can mix it up by giving Kade Depression (at the expense of the Doppelganger's upgrade if you wish), and switch the Doppelganger out for Lilitu or a Beckoner (Lure is great for Pandy). You can put Depression on the Doppelganger if you want to get more mileage out of Candy's Sweets and Sours. Aether can be switched out for Fugue State. Kade and Teddy can be switched out for Bishop and Widow Weaver too.

 

[Therril_83]

Also, look to Illuminated. They are so good it almost feels like cheating when adding them to crews..

 

They're incredibly durable with armor and healing, they are offensive with a great melee attack and a decent ranged one, and they're pretty fast.

I like them alot with Pandora, because she kills anything weak to Wp, they kill what she can't. 

 

Also Beckoners are really good with Pandora for several reasons. Lure is always good, sure, their Ca isn't as high as some, but 6 is still respectable, and it's suited. And they have a ranged attack against Wp that doesn't randomize, and if you're also running Illuminated it's gives them +2dmg against the target.

 

Don't put too much thought into the "no cheating"-auras, because those models won't live long after your opponents see what they can do. In my opinion, they are too good and too fragile. Tannen can possibly soak up some good cards while he gets killed, so that might be worth it on it's own..

[TehMik]

Gonna second the Illuminated recommendation. They are some of the best 7ss/model you could spend. 

 

Personally I haven't found Tannen to be that effective. But then I prefer the super-mobile Pandora to the ball-of-death Pandora so that probably comes down to personal playstyle. 

 

Don't have the cards on me and brain isn't working, but have found the upgrade that allows you to make enemy models insignificant to be a game winner.

 

But one reason I'm a fan of Pandy is that she can be played in many different ways. There is no "right way." Except that you must take the Widow Weaver with her Every. Single Game. Pretty sure that's in the rulebook.   

[zFiend]

Page 1.

[Viagrus]

I find Pandora to be good in all Schemes and Strategies. She has a very dynamic play style. The thing to remember when playing her is to stick to as few shenanigans as possible (she has a few). I've started games playing her as activation control (perhaps the most powerful way to play her) and was dominating the game, then I moved to another (viable) tactic with her and then another and the game fell apart for me.

I tried playing her ball of death (Pandy Ball) but found it was very easy to dismantle. It was certainly effective but with a crew whose average WP, DF and wounds is pretty low so that ball can deflate very quickly. Pandora in that role, with her excellent movement, just felt hobbled.

I've tried Tannen a few times for the discard a card to cheat ability. It's really powerful, but it didn't work for me. I wasn't playing Pandy Ball so he was always left behind and didn't work out. In scheme marker heavy pools keep him around for his chatty bubble and maybe a doppelganger to copy it.

Insidious Madness however has something akin to Tannen's ability but is much faster. Its speed usually marks it for scheme running duties, and it's damn good at that. I see its discard to cheat ability as a bonus when all the scheming is done (provided it's still alive). It's attack action deals a little damage but the WP debuff is the real reason for it.

If you are going to use Candy, use her aggressively and make sure she has Fears Given Form. It fits perfextly with her 3" bubble of Sweets and Sours. Put her within range of a big nasty model and incite that model and *poof* it's paralyzed, just for standing too close. I believe that your planned tactics for her would be a waste of her power. For upgrades I would suggest Depression, the main draw of it for me is to guarantee triggers because of the (0) Delight in Despair giving Melancholy to other Woes is nice since Noboby Likes Me makes a model activate last, as long as it's the only model with Nobody Likes Me that's where Sours comes into play and as I mentioned Fears Given Form.

If you want to run Pandy Ball I'd suggest Widow Weaver with whatever Lure support you want (Lelu if squatter's rights in the strat, 4" engagement range is awesome. Beckoner if you want some extra damage with her WP resisted spell).

I like Baby Kade as a hitter, I like him hanging around a Terror Tot. They both have Pounce and Kade has Lure and gets +2dg against models that are engaged with more than one model. If the Tot and Kade are positioned correctly (not hard to accomplish) the they both get a free swing on a Lured enemy. I like to give Kade Depression if I'm not running Candy. Use the Tot for scheming the first few turns and then get it back with his buddy Kade.

Bishop is a great hitter and makes a great combination with Pandy because he can target a model's WP with Melee attacks. Let that attack happen in Misery range and his damage starts to get nasty. Give him the Retribution's Eye upgrade (From Wave 2) and he becomes a master killer.

edited for formatting.

[Carcosa]

Sorry for the lack of direct quotes here, but for whatever reason this forum really does not like me quoting people.............

 

@ Vulkey

 

Point 1: I am not trying to prebuild a list per-se, but get a theoretical insight into the playstyle of Pandora. Melee crews are pretty straightforward, as are Shooty crews, but dealing with WP based duels to advance a strategy is new one for me, so I am just trying to get a feel for it.

 

Point 2: Thank you for the rest of your insight!

In essence what I am gathering is that the notion of a purely Woe based crew is just not going to be viable in a lot of conditions. No one has mentioned Iggy at all, which leads me to think that the notion of using Iggy and Pandora as an -effective- ablative shield will simply not be viable. Candy just does not seem to have the healing power at range to support such a strategy without hamstringing her other useful functions in such a crew. I could take a librarian, but that limits the heals to 1 per turn, but still. an option worth theorising about.

[Viagrus]

There aren't many models that heal in the game and there are very few models that do it in Neverborn. I understand the want to heal and keep your master alive. If a more resilient Pandora is what you're after take her upgrade The Box Opens, it gives her Terrifying 13 (All) and Df resist spell with a decent damage spread with nifty triggers.

If you want healing and some extra damage output I would suggest a look at Black Blood Shaman. He gives out black blood and can give buffs and heals with his (1) Black Blood Pustule.

Coppelius is also another model that has limited (but effective) healing. He is also fast enough to get to Pandora wherever she may be on the board. His healing is a (0) so you'll only be able to do it once per turn. His real strength is his flexibility. He is really fast, with the upgrade On Dreaming Wings he becomes Wk 8(!) and has Flight, he'll be able to move around the board at will. He's a medium to moderate hitter. Both of those attributes make him an excellent schemer and/or schemer hunter.

He offers the ability to summon Alps, which aren't very good for much outside of extra activations and some minor healing. The caveat of summoning them is that you need to use his eye ball counters, which give him +1 Df, and are used for his (0) heal.

About Iggy and the Martyr ability. I like Iggy as a 5SS Incite in non Pandora led crews, anything else he does is just gravy. He can spit out damage, debuff WP, hold an Upgrade, and scheme run. In truth, he's a solid model at 5SS. I just don't like him in Pandora crews.

The Martyr ability can be useful, especially to Incorporeal Woes (Sorrows, Insidius Madness and Poltergeist) because of their low wound count. Since Incorporeal halves damage, and half damage is rounded up, Martyr can really help keep an Incorporeal model alive, if only to soak up another AP from the attacking model. If an Incorporeal model takes 3 damage, it will be halved, 1.5 damage, and rounded up to 2 damage.

You won't want to use Pandora to Martyr, unless the model is really important, or you're going to heal her during your next activation anyway.

I've only used Martyr a few times to keep Sorrows alive, and only with Pandora.

[Thedirtofluck]

Perhaps slightly off topic a bit but could some one explain generally how Pandy wins when she goes for control build?

 

I am perhaps underestimating how much it messes with an enemies plan making them active 1 or 2 models a turn out of sequence but it feels like an inconvinience instead of a win condition.

[Dirial]

Perhaps slightly off topic a bit but could some one explain generally how Pandy wins when she goes for control build?

 

I am perhaps underestimating how much it messes with an enemies plan making them active 1 or 2 models a turn out of sequence but it feels like an inconvinience instead of a win condition.

 

Control Pandora tends to Paralyze people which is a huge inconvenience, to be sure. She wins by denying VP to the opponent, while the rest of her crew cranks up VP for herself.

 

By the way, killing isn't much of a win condition either (at least aside from certain Strategies).