Hamelin - Thus far discouraging to me.

[asrian]

Ok, I'm three games in with Hamelin and I honestly can say (as can one of my opponents) that the entire rat cycling is boring as hell (I, as the Hamelin player, really just want to go do my taxes instead of worrying about rats -> kings -> catchers -> etc). 

I enjoy his Obey style play as that reminds me of Zoraida, and I like what the Kings and Catchers do, but just can't seem to get into playing him because whenever I do I just feel apathetic at the prospect. I want to give him some more chances just in case it's just that one style of play (I felt the same about the first couple games with Collodi who is now my favorite Neverborn master, so I'm trying to reserve final judgement).

Thus far, all three games played have consisted of the Obedient Wretch + 3 Rats. I plan to drop those next game to see if that helps my outlook on him. 

Anyone else feel this way about him, or have any advise for me?

[lusciousmccabe]

I found he required a horrible amount of bookkeeping at first, with the blight as well. Good news is he doesn't need to rely too heavily on either of those every game and does have other play-styles that are fun and viable. 

 

You should try taking him along to a tournament and playing him in every game, that's what I did. The rat machine is very effective for some scenarios but in others it's actually a detriment so you end up playing more with obey and his charge blocking aura, using pipes to set your other model and sometimes summoning stuff so you can sacrifice them yourself. You might even end up hitting someone with his stick, who knows!

 

If you just play him in scenarios where rats are great and you want loads of them he is going to be tedious as all hell. 'Definitely drop some of the hired rats as well, you can make 8 of them with Hamelin alone by turn two, so you're better of hiring something like a Ronin you can't make in game. It's probably better for your list to have that variety, and it's certainly better for your sanity. 

[zFiend]

I have played three games against Hamelin. Each one has been truly boring. You wait for something to happen, since it's taking that long, you are waiting for something spectacular and then.. Nothing. It's just absolutely boring activation after activation regenerating new activations that lead to pretty much nowhere. 

 

Your turn takes 20 minutes, the Hamelin player keeps going for 40 minutes and you just sit there. 

[Kadeton]

I definitely got bored of the Rat cycle very quickly, and moved to an Obey-heavy style of play. I find he works really well with the kind of support models that never seem to have enough AP - you can make people like Hans, Sue and Johan become seriously annoying for the opponent. For a more fast-and-furious style you can also do well with a kind of bait-and-smash approach, using heavy hitters like Killjoy. I haven't tried it myself, but there also seems to be interesting crew builds you can do with the Lost.

I did find that turns sped up very quickly (once you and your opponent get used to what's happening, Rat activations aren't complicated), but the Rat stuff still never felt particularly satisfying - for the opponent there's a lot of watching the other guy do stuff, and for the Hamelin player there's a lot of watching your stuff fail at life. It gets a bit more interesting once you can throw around high-damage Bleeding Disease, but it's such a slow build compared to the very similar mechanics of McMourning's Poison.

[malekhant]

We should have a game Asrian. I would definitely like to see how boring it really is

[asrian]

It's definitely the rat cycle that bores me so much. The Blight isn't an issue really as I treat it like I do Brilliance in my Lynch crew - never purposely going for it, but utilizing it as an added perk when it does happen. The obey I find useful and enjoyable, but honestly if I want to just obey something I'd rather just go Jack Daw, torment them, and obey as I get the added perk of a curse and giving the opponent the choice of "lesser of two evils" once they activate. The lure I've yet to really use as most of the time when I do want to use it they are in combat, by which point the  makes it unappealing and I end up just going for an obey and forcing them or my own models to do a walk or another action anyway.

Still, that's only three games for me so far with similar style lists each time. I plan to go for a different style structure the next few times (depending on schemes/strat) to try out different variations. I don't want to just dismiss Hamelin after only a few games when there are multiple ways to play any master/crew depending on what you take in it and the objectives you're trying to achieve. 

[asrian]

You wait for something to happen, since it's taking that long, you are waiting for something spectacular and then.. Nothing. 

Your turn takes 20 minutes, the Hamelin player keeps going for 40 minutes and you just sit there. 

[zFiend]

YES!!

[daniello_s]

Zfiend is 'she'?

[Myyrä]

Zfiend is 'she'?

Not by the most traditional definition, but you can't ever really know what these guys are talking about.

[Bengt]

Zfiend is 'she'?

He is roleplaying Sybelle.

[daniello_s]

He is roleplaying Sybelle.

I assume when he is unhappy with the game he is shrieking at the opponent until he explodes?

[Molja]

I can verify that statement, Daniello_s. When he's furious then it's table-out-the-window move. I still remember that Victorias vs. Lynch game...

[zFiend]

I can verify that statement, Daniello_s. When he's furious then it's table-out-the-window move. I still remember that Victorias vs. Lynch game...

 

Me too.. "I'll declare Whilrwind" "Okay, so what does Whirlwind do?" 

[Kirby]

"I'll declare Whilrwind"

"Okay, so what does Whirlwind do?" 

 

Ah, that's always a fun conversation.  Unfortunately my opponent was Nicodem so Pokey Vik got two punk zombies to the face next turn.  Oh well, took out Mortimer the chatty gravedigger at least.

[PraetorDragoon]

On the Hamelin topic.

 

I usually don't start up with rats nor focus on them. I can make them by scratching my ass, or so to speak. I usually go for denial + obey. (Tools is very nice if there are scheme markers around. Also one of the few ways to limit scheme markers against a Colette crew.) Suited Obey is a great tool to have, and can be combined with heavy hitters. 

 

I have lately tried to go for a semi-beatstick approach, and let me tell you, if you do it right Hamelin can be very hard to remove properly. Make sure you have those Stolen staying around.

[MasterDisaster]

Ok, I'm three games in with Hamelin and I honestly can say (as can one of my opponents) that the entire rat cycling is boring as hell (I, as the Hamelin player, really just want to go do my taxes instead of worrying about rats -> kings -> catchers -> etc). 

I enjoy his Obey style play as that reminds me of Zoraida, and I like what the Kings and Catchers do, but just can't seem to get into playing him because whenever I do I just feel apathetic at the prospect. I want to give him some more chances just in case it's just that one style of play (I felt the same about the first couple games with Collodi who is now my favorite Neverborn master, so I'm trying to reserve final judgement).

Thus far, all three games played have consisted of the Obedient Wretch + 3 Rats. I plan to drop those next game to see if that helps my outlook on him. 

Anyone else feel this way about him, or have any advise for me?

 

I feel pretty much the same way as this. I really want to get into Hamelin but having faced him a bunch of times and played with him once myself he just seems incredibly dull. The rat spam drives me mad with boredom as the turn takes twice as long as everybody else's, it's so slow and drags every game on much longer than it needs to be. The blighted mechanic also takes forever to get set up meaning you can't really focus on it and can easily be countered with condition removal so really all he has going for him is Obey / Pipes and some Denial which whist very good swiftly becomes a one trick pony kind of deal which in turn becomes very boring to watch or play with. Much like my experiences with Sonnia I just sit there looking at my cards thinking to myself "WTF am I supposed to be doing here?". I really want to like Hamelin but I just don't get it! 

[Patzer]

On the "Rats takes forever"-bit. For me it took ages in the beginning, then forced myself to think ahead and always have a plan for the Rats. This upped my pace a lot, now I don't think it takes that much time. So my advice would be to challenge yourself to play faster and keep to the Plague master for a number of games in the row. 

 

With that said, it might be a bit boring for the opponent to see you (after being out activated) going: "all right, now I will do x y z, z makes this rat turn into a rat king, and that rat king will become a rat and a catcher, the rat will walk once, the rat catcher will put reactivate on the rat, the rat is in Los of Nix (who have infectious melodies), the rat will go Fast, walk three time, is sacrificed...and now you have Killjoy in your face".

 

Also, if you like Collodi it means you have a sadistic mean streak, and you will probably love Hamelin in time. If you like shutting down the enemy, Hamelin is worth the investment. 

[Kadeton]

One thing I was really hoping to see in the edition change was a "horde" mechanic whereby all the Rats shared a single, combined activation with bonuses based on the number of Rats in the swarm. It would have put Hamelin on a similar playing field to other Masters in terms of activation count, reduced the additional time required each turn, and given the Hamelin player an interesting tactical decision on when to activate the swarm.

Or, we could have seen a version where the Rats don't activate at all, instead acting as extensions of Hamelin's power - the Rats would move, attack and so on by spending Hamelin's AP, and he would become progressively more powerful as the swarm grew.

Instead we got Rat Kings, which are fine in concept but don't do anything to limit activation abuse by a player with a basic grasp of what they're doing. It's unfortunate that the "optimal" way to play Hamelin is also quite boring for both parties.

I disagree with some of what MD is saying above: If you really want to go for it, Blighted is pretty easy to put on people in large numbers in fairly short order, and condition removal isn't particularly effective against it (unless you bring a lot, or Lady J's massive AoE version). Saying "All he has going for him is Obey / Pipes and some Denial" is a bit like saying "All Zoraida has going for her is Obey and some card manipulation" - you're talking about some really powerful and versatile abilities there.

[Patzer]

One thing I was really hoping to see in the edition change was a "horde" mechanic whereby all the Rats shared a single, combined activation with bonuses based on the number of Rats in the swarm. It would have put Hamelin on a similar playing field to other Masters in terms of activation count, reduced the additional time required each turn, and given the Hamelin player an interesting tactical decision on when to activate the swarm.

Or, we could have seen a version where the Rats don't activate at all, instead acting as extensions of Hamelin's power - the Rats would move, attack and so on by spending Hamelin's AP, and he would become progressively more powerful as the swarm grew.

Could be some really neat upgrades in the future

[Verdeloth]

Nooo what are you guys saying ! Hamelin is so awsome (old skaven player from warhammer) i been looking forward to his plastic release cause i love to just swarm my opponent and now a dousin people tell me hes tiresome and boring? (Hope slowly dies)

[MasterDisaster]

I disagree with some of what MD is saying above: If you really want to go for it, Blighted is pretty easy to put on people in large numbers in fairly short order, and condition removal isn't particularly effective against it (unless you bring a lot, or Lady J's massive AoE version). Saying "All he has going for him is Obey / Pipes and some Denial" is a bit like saying "All Zoraida has going for her is Obey and some card manipulation" - you're talking about some really powerful and versatile abilities there.

 

Just my personal experiences both with and against him mate, I'm not saying he is a bad or even weak Master. I'm saying I really dislike what he does and how he goes about doing it. He bores me profoundly stupid and I genuinely never see the point in taking him over the other Outcast Masters I own, once I've got my hands on Leve and eventually Jack I doubt I'll ever feel the need to take Hamelin. Like I said in my previous post, I want to like Hamelin's play style, I really do however I just can't find a way for him to work out for me. I feel exactly the same about Sonnia and Yan Lo. As far as the Outcasts are concerned The Viks, Von Schill, Misaki and Tara always get the job done for me in 1) less time, 2) in a more enjoyable manor and 3) without leaving myself or my regular opponents catatonic / suicidal.

 

I don't deny that Obey and Denial are powerful tools that can achieve great things but they aren't tools I'm particularly fond of using. Additionally when you have fairly limited gaming time on a weekly basis having what little precious free time I do have wasted by a Hamelin player activating monstrous amounts of Rats which in turn drags the game on and on, messing around with the Blighted Condition for ages, having 10 activations left after my initial 8 are all done or obeying the crap out of my crew and then having to spend ages looking over my cards to decide what they actually want to do with my models really grinds on me. From what I've seen Hamelin spends a lot of time achieving very little and because of that he both bores and irritates me on a personal level. 

[moxypoo]

I think Tom hit the nail on the head in his earlier post: having a plan for all your Rats will greatly speed up the game and reduce boredom.  Since Rats generally have very simple activations (make a Rat King, move, or attack), I've found it pretty easy to figure out exactly what they're going to do while my opponent activates a model. Also, my game plan generally revolves around making as many Rat Kings as possible rather than having a huge swarm of Rats, which reduces the number of models I'm dealing with.  I'll generally only keep individual Rats around to give my Rat Catchers armor.  All this adds up to my games not taking much longer than when I'm playing any other master (with the exception of lists where I have 4 or 5 models total, which obvious don't take long to play).

 

Hamelin also plays really well with an elite crew in which every model can do it's own thing, because he can shut down enemy models and can give extra AP (Obey) to models with powerful (1) actions.  I've had some good success with running him as a control master and taking a bunch of models like Sue, Taelor, and Bishop.  The Boondoggles and MissingNo also add a lot to his control element (assuming they don't change drastically before they're released).

 

Having a specific plan with every model before it activates is generally a good thing, and I think it improves your play overall by allowing you to plan further into the future.  For example, Obeying a model and then having to read the entire card obviously sucks up a ton of time. In my opinion, you should know exactly what you want to do before you actually cast Obey. People will definitely have different opinions than me, and I'm not trying to make it sound like anyone is wrong!  But I think people will enjoy Hamelin more once they become smoother while playing him.

[Kadeton]

Just my personal experiences both with and against him mate, I'm not saying he is a bad or even weak Master. I'm saying I really dislike what he does and how he goes about doing it. He bores me profoundly stupid and I genuinely never see the point in taking him over the other Outcast Masters I own, once I've got my hands on Leve and eventually Jack I doubt I'll ever feel the need to take Hamelin.

Yep, not disagreeing with your preferences - sorry if I came across as dismissive. I pretty much never field him myself, with so many options available it's easy to fall into the habit of picking a couple of favourites and mostly ignoring the rest. The differences between the capabilities of Masters is subtle enough that I've never felt like I have to take a certain Master to succeed at a particular set of Strategy + Schemes, so I tend to default to Levy or the Viks and play the others only when I make a conscious decision to branch out for variety's sake.

As far as the Outcasts are concerned The Viks, Von Schill, Misaki and Tara always get the job done for me in 1) less time, 2) in a more enjoyable manor and 3) without leaving myself or my regular opponents catatonic / suicidal.

Of the Outcasts, Tara is the one I find to be most similar to Hamelin. They fill very similar roles in my mental map of the Faction - semi-resilient support Masters who can project control and hand out AP to other models. Tara's more mobility-focused, and Hamelin's more control-focused, and that's about it. All the Rat stuff barely affects my games with him other than winning the activation game and making the occasional Rat King for ridiculous enemy scheme-denial, but between Rats and Blighted it's a shedload of bookkeeping, so I can totally understand when people say they find him boring.

Additionally when you have fairly limited gaming time on a weekly basis having what little precious free time I do have wasted by a Hamelin player activating monstrous amounts of Rats which in turn drags the game on and on, messing around with the Blighted Condition for ages, having 10 activations left after my initial 8 are all done or obeying the crap out of my crew and then having to spend ages looking over my cards to decide what they actually want to do with my models really grinds on me. From what I've seen Hamelin spends a lot of time achieving very little and because of that he both bores and irritates me on a personal level.

Sounds like you've had some terrible experiences! I think Hamelin is a terrible Master to learn the game with (so is Zoraida, for very similar reasons) and I hope that once your local Hamelin player(s) are more fluent with the game they won't be quite so frustrating. You really can speed things up a lot with practice, though tracking Blighted is still always a PITA.

[MasterDisaster]

Yep, not disagreeing with your preferences - sorry if I came across as dismissive. I pretty much never field him myself, with so many options available it's easy to fall into the habit of picking a couple of favourites and mostly ignoring the rest. The differences between the capabilities of Masters is subtle enough that I've never felt like I have to take a certain Master to succeed at a particular set of Strategy + Schemes, so I tend to default to Levy or the Viks and play the others only when I make a conscious decision to branch out for variety's sake.

 

No need to worrys, interwebz always makes things look out of context and actual intent if often lost in text. I agree, I often find myself thinking "Hmm... Turf War Eh? VIKS!". To be honest I do tend to reach for the same 3 Outcast Masters more often than any others often dismissing the rest but occasionally I'll reach for Misaki and give her a whirl but like you mention above this is often because I feel like it rather than because it's tactically advantageous. I agree that particularly with Outcasts you don't need A for B and X for Y to be successful but with Hamelin he just doesn't do it for me, perhaps I've never seen him being used really effectively but he is just so slow!

 

Of the Outcasts, Tara is the one I find to be most similar to Hamelin. They fill very similar roles in my mental map of the Faction - semi-resilient support Masters who can project control and hand out AP to other models. Tara's more mobility-focused, and Hamelin's more control-focused, and that's about it. All the Rat stuff barely affects my games with him other than winning the activation game and making the occasional Rat King for ridiculous enemy scheme-denial, but between Rats and Blighted it's a shedload of bookkeeping, so I can totally understand when people say they find him boring.

 

Interesting that you see Tara is a similar light to Hamelin, I'd never really considered them in the same boat but now that I think about it they certainly do have some similarities. I think though that Tara's shtick is more enjoyable because it's a little less complicated. (Fast, Bury, Unbury, Eat Face) rather than the crazy antics I've seen some Hamelin players employ in the past. Bookkeeping is definitely the word! I'd need to hire my accountant to play as the referee if I played Hamelin regularly just to keep track of everything! It's a lot of work. 

 

 

Sounds like you've had some terrible experiences! I think Hamelin is a terrible Master to learn the game with (so is Zoraida, for very similar reasons) and I hope that once your local Hamelin player(s) are more fluent with the game they won't be quite so frustrating. You really can speed things up a lot with practice, though tracking Blighted is still always a PITA.

 

Oh yeah, there have been some pretty terrible games where I've just mopped the floor with Hamelin crews out of frustration totally ignoring VP for the sake of crippling the Rat summons or constant bloody Blighted. I tried Hamelin out against zFiend a while back and we were both pretty bored by the end of Turn 3. I persevered until the end at which point I was utterly destroyed on VP and zFiend wanted to fly to England just to kick me in the nuts for putting through that game. I can imagine after 10-15+ games proficiency with him would increase and he'd be less boring and slow but it feels like such a grind to get that kind of experience with him it really puts me off. Luckily there are 6 other Masters in my beloved Faction who interest me just as much as Hamelin and they shall suffice until my sadistic streak flares up and I jump into Hamelin which will no doubt happen when I see his plastics on my LGS's shelves...