Jakob Lynch's 52 Pick up

[Viagrus]

There has been some discussion on the Facebook group A Wyrd Place this morning (3/27/2015) about whether or not 52 Pick Up's damage is done in bursts (multiples of 2 damage) or in a lump sum.

A few people say it needs to be FAQed but because of the nature of AWP that will never happen without a post here.

I believe the damage is one lump sum.

[zFiend]

Interesting. It can be read both ways. I'd lean towards a lump sum though.

[Dirial]

I'd believe so, too. A single ability, the Aces get counted before the damage is dealt. Nothing suggests that it isn't a single damage source to me.

[Felix]

I would lean towards the single source as well, since 52 Pickup is the source of damage and it is comprised of revealed Aces. But some great replies on Facebook (which I will repost here without permission since I am certain he's currently asleep) that edged me back the other way was this:

 

When 2 effects stack, it means they are both applied (still on pg 63). This is 1 effect however (since its the result of 1 action), so doesn't apply. I like the argument... I honestly see where people are coming from. but disagree. Eg: baby Kade's carving knife: "if the target is engaged with at least one other friendly model, deal +2 damage". So +2, you add them together. It's not a multiple instances of anything. Its unique. If it said just "deal 2 damage" then it would be a separate damage source (from the one action).

 

They aren't multiple effects though, so it doesn't apply... Its a single effect (so can't stack since there isn't another effect to stack with) the effect does 2 dmg for every ace. So 1 action, 1 effect, up to 4 damage sources.

 

Damage is sometimes an effect - I completely get where you are coming from, tbh i hope they end up faq-ing it as one single source of damage. But they've (currently) explicitly (whether intentionally or not) separated each ace.

 

                                                                                                                                                                         

So... basically... please FAQ this Wyrd, since the the interpretations in either direction are too compelling.  

[Dirial]

So... basically... please FAQ this Wyrd, since the the interpretations in either direction are too compelling.  

 

I don't see a compelling rules argument in there, just some semantic trickery. Sorry, not convinced.

[asrian]

I'm with the One Lump Sum group. You decide how many aces you're discarding. Each counts for 2 damage. It's one ability though doing 1 full set of damage to a model with Brilliance. You discard 1 ace, it's 2 damage. 4 aces, it's 8 damage. You don't get to drop 1 ace, they take 2 damage (or 1 for armor) and then get to go back and say, "Ok, here's another Ace for 2 more." You get one chance at the end of Lynch's activation to just do the ability.

[zFiend]

I'm with the One Lump Sum group. You decide how many aces you're discarding. Each counts for 2 damage. It's one ability though doing 1 full set of damage to a model with Brilliance. You discard 1 ace, it's 2 damage. 4 aces, it's 8 damage. You don't get to drop 1 ace, they take 2 damage (or 1 for armor) and then get to go back and say, "Ok, here's another Ace for 2 more." You get once chance at the end of Lynch's activation to just do the ability.

 

Well put. 

[Dirial]

By any other logic, Expunge could be counted as multiple sources as well: First point of poison, one damage, second point of poison, ... You just count aces, then do damage.

[asrian]

I saw that discussion on the forums. It mainly, from what I saw, centered around doing the aces one at a time, thus negating Hard to Kill or being susceptible to armor with each Ace thrown. I just don't see how it can be used in that respect as it is still one damage source that is tabulated at the end of the activation. 

[bertmac]

I did include in that discussion the section from page 63 in the small rulebook it talks about conditions then goes on to say "all other effects in the game which are not conditions always stack unless they state otherwise."

[bertmac]

So my position is it is all applied at once but it then got into an argument over what the effect is wether four instances of damage are 1 effect and therefore have nothing to stack with.

[asrian]

So my position is it is all applied at once but it then got into an argument over what the effect is wether four instances of damage are 1 effect and therefore have nothing to stack with.

I missed that point. I read the first few posts and just got bored with the discussion on there. Seemed like power gaming and rules manipulation to me.

[Felix]

By any other logic, Expunge could be counted as multiple sources as well: First point of poison, one damage, second point of poison, ... You just count aces, then do damage.

 

I'm with the One Lump Sum group. You decide how many aces you're discarding. Each counts for 2 damage. It's one ability though doing 1 full set of damage to a model with Brilliance. You discard 1 ace, it's 2 damage. 4 aces, it's 8 damage. You don't get to drop 1 ace, they take 2 damage (or 1 for armor) and then get to go back and say, "Ok, here's another Ace for 2 more." You get one chance at the end of Lynch's activation to just do the ability.

 

I can't disagree with either of these, they're very well put. Especially since you place all your Aces back into your deck, then deal damage.