Kalkris Posted April 2, 2015 Report Share Posted April 2, 2015 I think your husband is right about the inaccuracy. I think the problem in question deals with Writhing Torment, one of his more powerful Upgrades. It makes any other Tormented model within some distance of JD Push 3" at the start of their activation. I think that is where the confusion stems from? ~Lil Kalki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 I will say that I also struggle against crews that seem to punish you for playing the game. That's especially true the first time I see them on the field, but generally crews like JD, Brewmaster, Collodi, or the Boondoggles - sorry, Crossroads 7 - just make me question why I took the time to build and deploy a crew. Obviously that's not a reasonable response though. Denial and control masters are a part of the game. It does tend to take me a few times looking over their rules to realize what they can't do, and then my outlook starts to improve. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valhallan42nd Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 I think your husband is right about the inaccuracy. I think the problem in question deals with Writhing Torment, one of his more powerful Upgrades. It makes any other Tormented model within some distance of JD Push 3" at the start of their activation. I think that is where the confusion stems from? ~Lil Kalki That even includes enemy Tormented models, like Nurses, Papa Loco, and other models that have had Tormented put on them. He's certainly not fun when you play against him for the first time. Shooting, focused attacks, attacks with a built in to the attack are his bane, plus WP attacks vs his themed crew. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Are Curses considered upgrades for the purposes of Hans' discard upgrade ability? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Are Curses considered upgrades for the purposes of Hans' discard upgrade ability? YUP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectreEliteGaming Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 I'll just quickly touch on a few points that haven't been mentioned yet: I'm honestly surprised that more people don't have negative play experiences against Daw. I think Victoria is right on the money about the feeling that one gets when you actually play against him. I think what is going on here is that this thread is full of Daw enthusiasts and all the players who hate him don't play Malifaux anymore. This is very dependant on your playstyle though. I am a naturally devious and manipulative player - When I look at scheme selection I first think "what can I take that will absolutely hose my opponent the most in scheme selection while allowing me to be able to disrupt his remaining (hopefully poor) selections." In other words, I don't want to win 10-9 I want to win 1-0. The reason this is effective for me, I think, is that your opponent is desperately gunning for as much VP as possible while you can just deny them in a more efficient manner - you are disrupting their playstyle by utilizing and following through with your own... preventing them from doing what they want to do by doing exactly what you want to do. I'm not sure if that makes sense to you like it does to me, so here's an example: My opponent is desperately trying to do the story mode strategy and investing a ton of AP into it. My mind tells me it is more efficient to sit My A&D's or Ubume's (also, gremlins love Ama fyi) large ass right on top of the target interact marker, with a little support here and there, and invest all of my AP in beating my opponent 6-5 in schemes while they are mucking about. Since I know everybody and their dog always always chooses plant explosives I spread out, "guaranteeing" (in my mind) a 6-5/6-4 victory. I am more than happy to give up 4VP to cancel my opponent's 4VP. If I figure out your vendetta target - I'll just nuke my own guy. Meanwhile, they continue to sink AP trying to actually play the game. Since I am investing all my AP into a smaller and more consistent area as opposed to my opponent trying to do everything, provided it all goes to plan, you should come out on top. So in a tournament, I'm probably going to really hose your diff/vp even if you beat me If you think like this you'll like Daw. On the otherhand, I saw Vallhallan play Daw in person in a rather aggressive tarpitty manner and he was still very effective, so you can just do whatever you want really. Even so, I believe that Daw should be played like those annoying blue control decks that keep putting whatever you cast back jnto your hand or just straight up counterspelling or neutering everything - as annoyingly as possible. Moxypoo's posts are gold - I want to disrupt your important models and kill your hand (so that's why I bring guilty plus they are good scheme runners - swap guilty for crooked or drowned depending on schemes). This is why I'm staying away from LL in favor of the Child. *You hose their hand to prevent cheating, as is - then you use "just like you" at -3ca targeting Daw's obey which targets a friendly models ability, who relents, to use the targeted ability at full strength instead of a gimped master attack copy - I'm sorry, did that freaking child just Whispers me??? dirty dirty dirty Plus everyone leaves Child alone anyways because he's just an annoying little shit "not worth the AP" - Manipulative 15(!!!) + disguised is just lunacy. The Child is Daw's unofficial totem. Couple extra points: - I'm really liking Ama, I just need to figure out how to incorporate her into my playstyle - I don't think she works for me but I'ma keep trying. -The biggest difficulty I face in crew selection is ALWAYS nurse vs. librarian - and I always have a crappy feeling like I chose the wrong one. - I play Daw with no intention of ever killing anything on my opponent's crew. If this playstyle won't work in the given strat/scheme composition I will just straight up choose a different master. Curse everything, kill the hand, and move everything aroundbeing a real disruptive jerk to play against - Daw likes "tormenting" people, right? - Daw has his place - I don't believe that every master can do every strat/scheme pool to a sufficient degree and JD is an extremely particular master to play. As much as I love the guy he'll never be above a tier 3 master. He's too picky and too situational with a number of effective hard counters. Hopefully, you knew enough to choose him in a strat/scheme comp. where those hard counters are unlikely to be used by your opponent. --- There is no need to wait for my 2 cents, anyway - moxypoo's two posts along with HD's wealth of knowledge is more than enough - I think HD wrote the pullmyfinger about Daw. EDIT: Screwed up the wording of Child's ability - edited to make more sense. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalkris Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Spectre, do you think Malifaux Child is an auto-take in a Daw list? ~Lil Kalki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectreEliteGaming Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 I've been really liking the child for a while now but actually, no. Child works great in a more aggressive disruptive list where you might need to spread out and haunt your opponent around the board. I like really covering the board with Daw's taint That would be in the manner that my last post is mostly talking about. If you are playing a tarpitty list where you need to hold territory then LL is probably still your go to. I know I made it sound like "screw Ligeia - Child all the way" but actually she has her place... and that place is right next to a Hanged >8) The thing about child though is that, unlike the situational models like the nurse which is hit and miss, the child is always good because he is doing more of what it is that your master wants to do as a (1) action and its hard to argue against that. I tend to always obey my own tormented models to avoid resist flip and only target enemies when needed but priority is mostly on my own. There are no auto takes with Mr. Daw - you have to cater around him and every choice is a hard choice. I'll throw out a couple extra nuggets that I just thought of that I am pretty certain about: - Montresor is terrible, I can't be convinced otherwise - did you know Ubume can hold Creeping Terror? The Ubume-Drowned package is too good and I'd take a hanged over montresor and just bank the rest of the ss. He's gimmicky and just a janky model. Too fast for his own good, to boot - feels like he needs to much support. - I take Daw in Strat-Scheme pools where its heavy scheme oriented or (especially!) with a lot of anti-killy schemes. This is mostly because I don't want to be suckered into a Frame target with Levy. A lot of Daw's crew can kill things in ways that don't count as you having made the killing blow. Basically, if the strat-scheme pool looks like "I reaaaaally want to take levy but it sucks because I'm not supposed to kill anything" then Daw is probably perfect. Daw is also great in crappy scheme pools where hard to do schemes like Spring the Trap are there and you just don't like the other options. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 but actually she has her place... and that place is right next to a Hanged >8) You are truly and utterly an evil man. that's the evilest thing I can imagine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted April 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Spectre, can you elaborate on the "Ubume-Drowned package is too good"? Stat - wise, it feels to me that Montressor is extremely squishy. Is that true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectreEliteGaming Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Montresor is the weak leg of the stool that wobbles when you stand on it. If I was my opponent I would just focus fire Monty eating ss prevention and then taking a major piece out of the game. As myself, I feel I want to overextend Monty to get the most out of him but fear exactly that happening to him so I'm either worried about him or under utilizing him. If you want an expensive scheme runner buy A&D. The last thing JD needs is a super expensive fast scheme runner anyway... and even then Ama is better (I'm still experimenting with her though - I usually just send Daw + guiltyx2/hanged around the board). If you really want the lure effects I would take jaakuna ubume and a drowned with nurse support - its just a solid shitty place for your opponent's models to end up - and kind of generally float my crew around where they are anchored. Jaakuna holds ground and Daw floats around letting his entourage drop scheme markers. Jaakuna is also super cheap and I feel more effective than Monty plus the drowned are hearty models. If I lose Jaakuna it doesn't matter because she's cheap and did her job. Honestly, it can even come down to the generalization of "ubume and monty do similar things - ubume is 4ss cheaper... okay ill go with ubume and I don't need both." What I meant by "too good" is more as a comparison to Monty - for 2ss more you are getting two models that are tough and scary - I'm big on efficiency and they don't come with a target on their head like Monty does. Drowned and Crooked are better in play than they appear on paper - you'd have to get them into play. Last point... I still have yet to figure out why Jaakuna Ubume is more of a "washer woman", which is celtic or irish lore(?), than she is an "ubume" - which is some kind of weird japanese bird spirit. I'd really like her to be a weird bird spirit in the plastic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valhallan42nd Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 You are truly and utterly an evil man. that's the evilest thing I can imagine. Against Mason, I had that, plus Jaakuna, plus a Librarian to strip suits... Sometimes, a dash of salt is called for, at others, it's best to beat them with the whole salt lick. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valhallan42nd Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Last point... I still have yet to figure out why Jaakuna Ubume is more of a "washer woman", which is celtic or irish lore(?), than she is an "ubume" - which is some kind of weird japanese bird spirit. I'd really like her to be a weird bird spirit in the plastic Ubume in folklore Originally the name for a kind of small sea fish,[5] in Japanese folklore the term is now applied to the ghost of a woman who had died in childbirth, or ‘‘birthing woman ghost.’’ [6][7] Typically, the Ubume asks a passerby to hold her child for just a moment and disappears when her victim takes the swaddled baby.[8] The baby then becomes increasingly heavy until it is impossible to hold. It is then revealed not to be a human child at all, but a boulder or a stone image of Jizo.[9] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectreEliteGaming Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Well then... I stand corrected. Now I'm wondering why I thought it was some kind of evil bird woman spirit thing that steals/eats babies or something... and no I'm not thinking of shikome. Cross cultural consistancy in folklore is truly astonishing though. Lots of cultures have dragons, different kinds of (similar) vampires, and even similar washer women stories. Especially evident in creation mythology. Its really baffling when you think about it... where did these stories originate? (mind blown). Aw well... I digress. ---- Hey, Valhallan - did you have your librarian tormented or not? I don't remember. I tend not to bother tormenting my own stuff unless I have nothing to do with the last AP (but Jack always has something to do ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalkris Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Hey Spectre, I have another line of queries: In cases where you have the option of either taking Montresor (+Fearful Whispers or Creeping Terror) + Hanged, or Jaakuna (+Creeping Terror) + The Drowned x2, What scenarios would each be superior over the other? I'm thinking based on faction, or based on scenarios where model count being low/high is more desirable (I.E. Reconnoiter is better for the Jaakuna package, but Reckoning might be better for the Monty package). And could you incorporate schemes and GG strats into your answer? I know the GG strats roughly correspond with core encounter strats, but they are pretty different and I'd like to see what you think there. Thanks! I really hope there's actually an answer to this one as it is 19 stones we are talking here ~Lil Kalki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectreEliteGaming Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Well, the problem is, like I said before - I'm probably not the best to ask about playing JD as a generalist. He comes in for very particular circumstances for me where there is a large emphasis on a) not killing things, and lots a schemey stuff. I would never bring JD for reckoning (killy levy comes in) or recon (recon/interference is a summoner's game - levy for recon and i'm hypothesizing that hamelin will be an ace for interference... more on that later? >8) ). As such, I have no idea what I'd do in those instances... he's really not good for either. Its a weird way to think about it but I find JD to be good at all the crappy strats and schemes no one ever plays with (like stake a claim or spring the trap). He's really good when you have a really lame scheme pool. Daw is great in Frame, Plant Explosives/evidence, entourage, blah blah blah... every scheme except kill specific ones. JD's worst matchups overall would be guild (shooty-high wp) and Ca heavy crews. The other factions depend on the individual masters in question. JD's best matchups are low willpower (gremlins) or MI heavy non summoning crews. You really don't want to be out activated too badly. I got flack for this last time I said it but I also rarely run JD unless I know exactly what master my opponent will be bringing to the table (maybe cheating? maybe pre-game recon?). I think its important to also remember that playing JD feels a lot like playing survivior mode in Malifaux. It's kind of like eventually you will lose the game you are just trying to hold out as long as possible - this is probably why people hate playing a passive disruptive JD (not "cagey" - you got to keep the pressure on). They move in, you move them out - they want to hit you, give them firing squad. A lot of the time you can just kind of see what it is that your opponent does and just counter it to piss them off They are playing Malifaux - you are playing "anti-malifaux." I never take Monty - I prefer JD running around with a Hanged and LL/Child (Guiltyx2 for extra schemeyness if you brought them). Also, there's no reason you can't do both... Jaakuna can hold fort while JD runs around with his entourage pissing people off. I rarely don't take Jaakuna - the question really is Nurse vs. Librarian and the answer to that is flip a coin i guess. :/ Make sure that most models you bring has the potential of "cancelling" out one or more of your opponent's models. Ideally you want to hose the important models while getting your objectives done. JD has no problem swooping in for the win at the end game after you've most certainly won the psychological game over your opponent, who probably doesn't want to play anymore. Internet trolls would like playing Daw, me thinks. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalkris Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 What about something that is sort of a hybrid, like Headhunter, where there's a ton of killing, but also a lot of interaction afterwards in order to score? Headhunter is indscriminate as to who picks up the Head Markers, right? Because if that's true Jack can hire Rat-Catchers or something as cleanup while his other models are essentially slaughtered to that end, I daresay? I mean, I know it's usually a terrible idea to have your models go to get offed unless they're either A&D or Leve (heh heh), but would that be a thing to do here? ~Lil Kalki 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectreEliteGaming Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Actually, I wouldn't write off Daw from Headhunter completely, depending on the scheme pool. He can push and pull (er... twist and turn) and doesn't mind being up close. The way to stop Jack is to pick his crew apart not to go for Jack himself... so as they are killing your guys you might be able to pick up your own heads or definently negate them from doing so. I'd have to look into it more as right now Hunters/peacekeeper or those damn belle spam levy lists have my attention. The problem with this strategy though his that Daw depends on his crew a lot - every model you lose Daw gets weaker... :/ On a side note - I'm positive Hamelin is going to be GREAT in headhunter (and interference to boot) i just have to play him more... maybe not for tournaments if you dont get past turn 3 though :/ Back on track - if headhunter had some anti-killy schemes and I knew my matchup would be average- good I'd probably give Daw a shot, for sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted April 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 So, how would this JD list look like at 35 ss as a first play test of JD? JD+his 3 upgrades, LL, Jakune, Drowned, and *any of these three* Hanged/RustyAlyce/Hannah (to make tormented) or do I need a Guilty in the list to do that? Also, does Writhing Torment (the aura that allows him to push an activating tormented) work on JD himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valhallan42nd Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Writhing Torment does not work on Daw, as it says "when another Tormented model..." Writhing Torment and Twist and Turn are, to me, auto-includes, and I utilize the other curses as much as possible. I also agree with Montressor. There's a lot of cool stuff going on with him that will never come into play, because he's just going to die. He has no hard to wound, no hard to kill... Rusty Alyce is, quite frankly, amazing with Daw. She adds to his denial with snares, which becomes 4 inches with the Creeping Terror, blocking all charges against her. I also usually rapid fire with her every turn past the first, as being able to move her nine inches before she shoots (twist and turn/writing terror push) allows her to get wherever she needs to do. Min 3, ignoring HtW... with a high SH? Yes, please. Oh, and she can get the Guillotine injustice from Daw. All it does is make her tormented, as she's neither a minion or a peon, though you have to watch out for abilities that can make you a peon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Against Mason, I had that, plus Jaakuna, plus a Librarian to strip suits... Sometimes, a dash of salt is called for, at others, it's best to beat them with the whole salt lick. Are you related to Asrian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted April 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Awesome! I am going to try this then: Jack Daw w/three named upgrades and curses Lady L Rusty Alyce w/ named upgrade Jakune Drowned Leaving 2 extra ss in my pool or is there an upgrade that Jakune should have? Where does Creeping Terror go? Is one drowned enough to make Jakune good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valhallan42nd Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Are you related to Asrian? Who? What? Sometimes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valhallan42nd Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Awesome! I am going to try this then: Jack Daw w/three named upgrades and curses Lady L Rusty Alyce w/ named upgrade Jakune Drowned Leaving 2 extra ss in my pool or is there an upgrade that Jakune should have? Where does Creeping Terror go? Is one drowned enough to make Jakune good? Jaakuna can carry creeping terror. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalkris Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Awesome! I am going to try this then: Jack Daw w/three named upgrades and curses Lady L Rusty Alyce w/ named upgrade Jakune Drowned Leaving 2 extra ss in my pool or is there an upgrade that Jakune should have? Where does Creeping Terror go? Is one drowned enough to make Jakune good? I don't know how necessary Alyce's upgrade is just because while Abominations are fun little summons, Alyce will only make one every 2 turns unless facing a Construct-heavy list. Definitely give Jaakuna Creeping Terror. What curses and named upgrades specifically are you omitting from Daw? He has 5 slots and you have 6 choices Also, what is your ss pool like? ~Lil Kalki 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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