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Looking at Sonnia, where to next?


Sixgunsexpistol

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I'm sorry if my response seemed too harsh. I just can't see what the purpose of your post was, if it wasn't to imply independently are and Francisco should be cuddled. Was there some other intention that I missed?

I'll quote Bodiless who posted with pretty much my exact feelings (with some further comments below)

 

I would say that the fact that the buffs last to the next activation, when so many abilities like that last until the end of the turn, adds to the perception that they are overpowered. Whether or not that they are actually overpowered is in many ways a separate issue. The fact that they stand out as something that can be applied to masters and made pseudo-permanent makes them more noticeable in some ways than some of the other crazy abilities out there.

I am stating that I do not think they are OP having played both with and against this build. But there is definitely a perception that it is (and that Franc/Papa's abilities are independently). Like most things in Malifaux it's about learning to play against them that is key and once you have that perception diminishes (I've recently played summoning Dreamer for the first time which was horrible but I know once I have more experience that it won't be so bad). I agree with you that the game should be balanced for experienced players as learning the intricacies is part of the game.

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Dgraz, based on the extensive tactics posts you've made I can say with confidence that you're on a whole different level from me when it comes to your positioning game. Even at my best my Malifaux game is a long, suicidal slide into the strategy and schemes. No matter who I'm playing or what the final score looks like, I almost never have a substantial board presence by the end of turn 5.

Malifaux is a little like chess in that, when you're good, you can play the game and hardly kill anything. When you're new to the game however the board has so much going on that it's just easier to trade away pieces until you can see a way towards your objectives. When you're playing the game on that level Papa-in-a-Box makes a lot of sense.

 

And again, the model that I feel is a problem to run with Sonnia is the Malifaux Child. Extra pillars is sick and the Eternal Flame isn't good enough to make it much of a choice (in my opinion, ymmv).

Meh....I still get beat plenty. Thanks though.

And there are times that I play just like you mentioned....sometimes that is the best way....a slow attrition of your forces to hold up the enemy while you score VP elsewhere. I think the Papa thing is okay....but I think people constantly telling new players to do it is actually a disservice. My advice above didn't mention it, or 'Cisco, at all....my advice is to go with her 'fluff' list and learn how to use it. Relying on a crutch like Papa/'Cisco isn't going to help you when you play against a more experienced player that knows how to deal with it. Sonnia plays very well without them.

 

I think that comparing Malifaux to chess isn't doing either game any favors. The games are just too different, because Malifaux is not as symmetric and hell of a lot more complicated.

 

I think that the point admiralvorkraft makes on Dragz being a highly skilled player rises an interesting question: Should the game be balanced on the beginner level or on a very high level of play? I myself would vote for the latter, because the skill differences between players who are just starting out are just so much greater than between those who have played for a long time, that the games are most often won by the more skilled player, unless the game is really unbalanced, which Malifaux is not.

Definitely high level. If it isn't, then better players will just find much easier ways to exploit the game.

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I agree with high-level balancing as well, because we're all more-or-less trying to get there. I was just trying to explain why this seems like a no-brainer to so many people (myself included) even though I'm pretty sure it's not as good as it looks. Sonnia certainly doesn't have any problem nuking things without Papa around, he just streamlines the process. I think that if I were playing at a level that rewarded long term planning over trading models for three turns before scattering to score points - a habit that I am getting away from - it would be more clear that those 7 stones are better (or at least competitively) spent elsewhere.

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Meh....I still get beat plenty. Thanks though.

And there are times that I play just like you mentioned....sometimes that is the best way....a slow attrition of your forces to hold up the enemy while you score VP elsewhere. I think the Papa thing is okay....but I think people constantly telling new players to do it is actually a disservice. My advice above didn't mention it, or 'Cisco, at all....my advice is to go with her 'fluff' list and learn how to use it. Relying on a crutch like Papa/'Cisco isn't going to help you when you play against a more experienced player that knows how to deal with it. Sonnia plays very well without them.

 

Definitely high level. If it isn't, then better players will just find much easier ways to exploit the game.

 

 

I feel like it should be balanced to both, because if you want the game to grow you are going to frustrate new players by having a low level severe imbalance.

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What do you find is usually killing her off? Is it models like Marcus that can cross the field in an activation? Return fire from some other nasty ranged threat? Something jumping cover until it reaches her? 

 

I play against a lot of Misaki.  So mostly what happens is that Misaki hops across the table, stepping over the charred remains of her crew, and chops Sonnia's stupid head off.

 

Except that with + flips to attack and damage against many models (anything with WP6) and another +flip to damage from Hold This my list was basically all of the models that I expect to survive long enough to get that good look at her. I'm also thinking about my shiny new riflemen, who also have crazy ranged damage and the glassiest of jaws. Although since I am headed out now to my monday night game I should have a better sense of what kills them in a few hours. :)

Luckily Ancient Runes only gives :+fate  to the attack duel, which I interpret as not including the damage flip.  So it isn't quite as bad as that.

 

I have very little experience playing against Sonnia; in fact I don't think I ever even saw her on a table at any tournament I attended in 2014, let alone played against her in a tournament environment.  Still, here are some things that I find I don't want to happen when I'm playing Sonnia:

 

  • Lots of Hard To Wound, or worse Impossible To Wound (though the latter is quite rare).  Sonnia doing only weak damage is a sad Sonnia, though of course this can be mitigated by Focus.
  • Very fast models.  Sonnia is not really very good in combat, and even if she's engaged by something that is unlikely to kill her, it stops her from firing Flame Bursts all over the place.
  • Serious sustained ranged threat.  Pairs of Freikorps Trappers and Katanaka Snipers are problematic as they can drain my resources or put out damage without really needing much in the way of card pressure.

 

There are also 'harder' counters.  An all-Freikorps crew will make life very hard for Sonnia's game plan, and this goes double if you also put in Papa Loco.  I'm very wary of playing against Tara as she can mess with Papa Loco while he's buried, and also against Kirai as it seems like it would be hard to stop the Ikiryo from messing you up.  However, I have to admit that I haven't played the latter matchup at all yet.

 

However, all this can be played around by the Sonnia player so it's hardly a silver bullet.  On the other hand, this is probably the way it needs to be - there shouldn't be a list full of hard counters for other things in the game, and I believe that good positioning and use of AP can be more effective.  However, positioning and AP usage is hard to describe over the internet, especially in general terms, so again I'd refer anyone who wants to know how to beat (my version of) Sonnia to the battle reports in which I get beaten.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think that comparing Malifaux to chess isn't doing either game any favors. The games are just too different, because Malifaux is not as symmetric and hell of a lot more complicated.

 

I think that the point admiralvorkraft makes on Dragz being a highly skilled player rises an interesting question: Should the game be balanced on the beginner level or on a very high level of play? I myself would vote for the latter, because the skill differences between players who are just starting out are just so much greater than between those who have played for a long time, that the games are most often won by the more skilled player, unless the game is really unbalanced, which Malifaux is not.

 

I think that comparing Malifaux to chess isn't doing either game any favors. The games are just too different, because Malifaux is not as symmetric and hell of a lot more complicated.

 

I think that the point admiralvorkraft makes on Dragz being a highly skilled player rises an interesting question: Should the game be balanced on the beginner level or on a very high level of play? I myself would vote for the latter, because the skill differences between players who are just starting out are just so much greater than between those who have played for a long time, that the games are most often won by the more skilled player unless the game is really unbalanced, which Malifaux is not.

 

It can't be bad for entry which it isn't. But balance more often then not should be tuned in to high end skilled players. They are the ones who find combo's and such and discover kinks that need to be worked out. 

 

However entry level to intermediate level players need to look for options and use them what often kills them is they get hit by something and just give up. Or do not seek to minimize a capability that there opponent has. Most players of these levels think the game works away it doesn't and when someone pilots a list that imposes a different aspect and wrecks there list they do not adjust.

 

On the other side of that........it's also tiring to see 'use Francisco and Papa' in every thread. Learn to think outside the box people.

 

I know you like to play fluff crews and don't like dipping outside of the box(s) but the thing with those two models is the protection from Francisco and the + to damage for Papa that makes them so popular.

 

For Francisco I think it is most often wrong to put his +2+2 on a master unless it is vital to tank 1/2 or more of a opponents crew list. In the beta I got more out of him by buffing other henchmen 9 times out of 10. A 2 man tag team of him and Samael is a thing of beauty to behold on the table from a kill team perspective even more so with obey user models to increase there ap (for free focuses or walks to get into range mostly). I don't know what his base def is off the top of my head but if it is 5 Samael becomes a force at def 7 if not 6 ain't terrible either.

 

For Papa the DM is obviously for obey protection so he doesn't destroy your own crew but if you aren't facing against it you can leave the DM out of the list to save points. He is probably just too good at damage efficiency given the nature of the game nowadays. By providing a + to damage he really ups the reliability of being able to 2 shot or 3 shot 6-8 wound models and the rapid fire brings down if all 3 hit just about everything that isn't armor 2+ or have spend ss to heal. Your hitting models have to put in work in this edition and quickly due to 5 turns so he really is a strong option to include for a kill team of models while your other stuff goes and gets VP to win.

 

Completely disagree. It's just stupid internet perception. It works for a few people in their meta and all of a sudden everyone is doing it.

Come by my LGS any time with that combo and I'll happily point out the error in that thinking.

 

Is it possible to turn 1 obey something know if your (papa) haven't left your deployment zone nowadays mate? Cause that is the only thing I could see that could get him before he goes in the box?

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I know you like to play fluff crews and don't like dipping outside of the box(s) but the thing with those two models is the protection from Francisco and the + to damage for Papa that makes them so popular.

 

 

Is it possible to turn 1 obey something know if your (papa) haven't left your deployment zone nowadays mate? Cause that is the only thing I could see that could get him before he goes in the box?

I never said they weren't good. Simply that their popularity is annoying. They are good, but they aren't the end-all be-all......there are literally dozens/hundreds/thousands of potential crew combinations that will work just as well and potentially better........my point was that it's tiring to always have them jammed down every new player's throat when those people should be encouraged to try other things (including models that have specific crew synergy).

 

And to your second point, I don't care if Papa goes in the box. Better for me actually....it's one less activation. I'll be running rings around with my superior model count and I can pretty much guarantee that Sonnia is going to get one turn of shooting, and it probably isn't going to be optimal shooting conditions.

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Luckily Ancient Runes only gives :+fate  to the attack duel, which I interpret as not including the damage flip.  So it isn't quite as bad as that.

 

 

"Ancient Runes: This model gains  :+fate to duels during its Ca actions when targeting a model with Wp 6 or more."

 

The text says duels, not just attack duels. Damage flip is a simple duel that is still part of the Ca action, so she does get  :+fate to the damage flip as well. Unfortunately. 

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"Ancient Runes: This model gains  :+fate to duels during its Ca actions when targeting a model with Wp 6 or more."

 

The text says duels, not just attack duels. Damage flip is a simple duel that is still part of the Ca action, so she does get  :+fate to the damage flip as well. Unfortunately. 

A damage flip is not a simple duel, it is just a flip.

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"Ancient Runes: This model gains  :+fate to duels during its Ca actions when targeting a model with Wp 6 or more."

 

The text says duels, not just attack duels. Damage flip is a simple duel that is still part of the Ca action, so she does get  :+fate to the damage flip as well. Unfortunately. 

 

Not true. Damage flips is not a Duel, it's a flip.

 

EDIT: Dirial'd.

Edited by Dirial
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I would think so, since that is a duel that takes place during its Ca action. But I was just completely wrong with great confidence a few posts back so take that for what it's worth. ;)

 

As a side point, I think that misconception plus the number of Wp6 models you can find in a typical NB list goes a long way towards explaining why I considered Sonnia so much more overpowered than many other people posting here did. It basically amounted to free focus on every shot against a large number of the models I run, including most of the masters. 

 

 

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