PositronMike Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I am having a problem getting to grips with how to best use Lilith. I have had several games with her now where I feel she is hindering the crew rather than helping. In fact last game I just ended up using her to cast illusionary forrest and as an extra activation. I don't know if the problem comes from not using her in her theme crew or if she just doesn't suit my play style. I find that she is very squishy unless I bring a large soulstone cache but even then I would prefer to stone for cards or initiative rather than save them for Lilith. This squishiness means that unless I think I can kill something in one activation I don't want her in combat or even on the front lines. How do people tend to use Lilith? Is there any particular play style she works well for? At the moment when I look at a scheme pool I think that I will get better mileage out of Pandora or Lynch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 What? Oh boy, I never thought I would read that. I assume you have studied her wiki article? Lilith is a swiss army knife. She does what you need her to do at any given moment. She can teleport her guys around (very powerful), lure things out of position (also very powerful), bash someone's head in (very powerful indeed), hinder shooters with her forest (occasionally powerful), run Schemes with her fast move (you know it: powerful), and can even tank well with some SS for her trigger, as long as the attacker attacks Df. See her as a ninja, singling out vulnerable models, and empowering her crew to play for VP. That's how I would play her. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Backing Dirial here. Lilith is amazingly powerful. She might take a while to learn but it pays back. Then again, you can never go wrong with Lynch. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinimumPhase Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I personally find Lilith to be the most versitile Neverborn master. The ability to draw a target to herself and then potentially kill it, while at the same time possibly placing one of her crew into position is very valuable. While she does not survive well in a group of enemies, her high defense and disappear trigger makes her very sufvivable against a single figure that attacks Defense, in my experience. I have never found Lilith to be dependent on her in-theme crew to be effective. I tend to keep her skulking in the shadows, pulling an enemy into her web of death, letting her crew gather the victory points while Lilith herself offers a very credible threat to most enemy models, either directly with her greatsword, or indirectly by moving the enemy and some of my own models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PositronMike Posted February 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I have gone through her wii article several times now and I guess my problem with her is in later game turns. I have used her to slingshot models around quite effectively in games (especially when I dropped candy into a mass of gremlins). However after the first few turns I start having problems when the crews get closer together. I feel I should be trying to keep her out of the thick of the action as that would offset my problem with her feeling a bit fragile. I guess the question should really have been how to use Lilith mid to late game say from turn 3 onwards as that is where I struggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 One of one our players does most of her work out of Los I think. He just pushes people around doing damage via rooted and pounce. He uses Barbaros to keep next to Lilith and he swears on Challenge and that ability is sick. I haven't played with him so I'm not sure what he exactly does but he has some great success with Lilith being his first master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Just to reiterate the above posters, Lilith is a guerrilla fighter extraordinaire. If I was restricted to just one master in Neverborn to use against all 38 other masters/crews I'd pick her, hands down, and never regret the decision. She can be used in and out of theme just as well (90% of the time I don't use nephilim with her. Typically I bring swamp fiends and/or Illuminated). The trickiest part of learning her is getting over the first impression of her stats/abilities that show her as a beat stick. She is, very much so, but not the in-your-face grunt charging forward type. Lilith is a cocaine fueled Predator, in a ghillie suit, with invisibility, and a light saber. Use her to move your guys around, hinder the enemy's LoS with forests, Lure them out of position, bind them in place, and pick them off one at a time when they least expect it. She can act both independent of her crew, and support it with positioning tricks and LoS tricks (via her forest...use that thing like another crew member). Don't get discouraged playing her, she takes a little time to figure out and get used to her tricks, but once you do start to figure them out, she is worth her weight in gold. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Wow. Now that's a sales pitch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Wow. Now that's a sales pitch! I've earned my daily approval from zFiend. My work here is done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 One of one our players does most of her work out of Los I think. He just pushes people around doing damage via rooted and pounce. He uses Barbaros to keep next to Lilith and he swears on Challenge and that ability is sick. I haven't played with him so I'm not sure what he exactly does but he has some great success with Lilith being his first master.Yeah. I have played against our resident Lilith player quite a few times and he indeed tries to keep her out of LOS as much as possible and resorts to her sword only when the opportunity is absolutely golden. His philosophy for playing Lilith is to first consider all other options rather than doing a melee attack with her.Tangle might very well be the most versatile single ability in the game (only challenged by Nico's Summoning, I think) - you can do an utterly insane amount of things with it. Taking squishy enemy in to kill them, moving tough enemy into bad places, disrupting the enemy by throwing something durable in their midst (Waldgeist rocks for this, btw), helping in accomplishing any Scheme or Strategy in the game and so on.But it can lead to analysis paralysis as well. I certainly think that Lilith is actually one of the most difficult Masters to master as she is just super versatile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Wow. Now that's a sales pitch! The Ressers got theirs, too, I think. I've earned my daily approval from zFiend. My work here is done. Next time, post something about whips. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Next time, post something about whips. This is why you are one of the three. You just get me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 This is why you are one of the three. You just get me. Yeah, that reminds me: Where is the resident Disaster in human form today? He is suspiciously silent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Yeah, that reminds me: Where is the resident Disaster in human form today? He is suspiciously silent. Probably passed out already. That Lil Drinky Boy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nical Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I say about what your crew do. not what lilith does. Lilith's point is she is board controller, not killy monster. So she usually get advantages for VP by Board Controls, not Killing. This means you must think about it to build Lilith crew. Some tricks like Slingshot Candy in Early Turns are useful and fun, but your other models must work for VP in early turns. Simply, Make VP gap between you and Opponent and Hold dominant position in early turns. Keep dominant position in mid-late turns. This is How Lilith Crew wins. Lilith is not our Lady Justice or Viks. If You want 'Killy' Master, Lynch and Pandora are better for you. Additionally, I think your 'theme crew' may be Nephilim crew. Because you complain squishiness, and that is not important in Board Control Crews. In my experiences, Pure Nephilim Crew is inferior than Board Control Crew for Lilith. Lilith's true theme is Board Control, not Nephilim. And I think If your 'theme crew' focused to Board Control, you may know what you do in mid-late turns. P.S : But I prefer 'mastermind' style masters like Collodi, Lucius, Dreamer. Because I use them better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreaper Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 This is a fantastic topic for learning Lilith, i wish i'de have thought to post when i first started using her. I will say that i agree with all the previous posts in regards to using the lovely lady lilith. I will share my experience as well... Lilith for me is a master that i can easily show up to an event and know that regardless of the pool, she can do well. She is just that flexible. Beckon malifaux is prob one of my favorite upgrades in the game. Two 0's and 100mil of blocking terrain at an incredible range, wow. I have used this to block lanes of travel, los, and even used in conjunction with other models b2b for a long chain of no LoS. One of the best things about lilith is she does not need LoS herself for her actions. Hide in a building, or directly behind a waldgiest or 2 and cast with umpunity. I've found that most buffs for other crew require LoS so tangle them into a building to thier demise. Ive found tangle used as a teleport for lilith to be usefull as well as she can use herself to move B2B with an enemy (just found this out not too long ago ) I always think of her as independent of her crew but they can often work for a common goal. Also in melee she is quite durable, if you high cheat or stone the 1st attack against her or defensive stance works wonders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PositronMike Posted February 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I am beginning to think that I am getting distracted by the upgrades I am taking on her. I nearly always take beckon malifaux as the forest is too good to pass up. However recently I have been taking living blade a lot and as a result trying to get her into situations where I can make best use of it. Instead I am thinking I probably should be concentrating more on wicked vines and using pushes to do damage. I am also tempted to try a black blood shaman to get black blood on an illuminated to use summon the blood to get lots of area damage for little risk to the illuminated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 My opponent loves her for the Pustule. He runs a Tot into a group of people, cast Pustule on it twice, then switches it with a beater. I didn't expect area damage from Neverborn, but now, I am very wary of that combo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 My opponent loves her for the Pustule. He runs a Tot into a group of people, cast Pustule on it twice, then switches it with a beater. I didn't expect area damage from Neverborn, but now, I am very wary of that combo. That's actually how I killed Colette and Cassandra my first game against them. After both had activated Doppelganger mimic'ed Black Blood Shaman and pustuled 3 times in a row, then Shaman activated and Pustuled 2 more times. It was nasty and took my opponent completely by surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 That's actually how I killed Colette and Cassandra my first game against them. After both had activated Doppelganger mimic'ed Black Blood Shaman and pustuled 3 times in a row, then Shaman activated and Pustuled 2 more times. It was nasty and took my opponent completely by surprise. Ah music to my ears. Die Colette die! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PositronMike Posted February 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 That's actually how I killed Colette and Cassandra my first game against them. After both had activated Doppelganger mimic'ed Black Blood Shaman and pustuled 3 times in a row, then Shaman activated and Pustuled 2 more times. It was nasty and took my opponent completely by surprise. Didn't think about the doppleganger. So lilith, shaman and doppleganger could get you 8 pustules off in one turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Didn't think about the doppleganger. So lilith, shaman and doppleganger could get you 8 pustules off in one turn. You're getting into the Neverborn mindset, I see. Nasty buggers all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreaper Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I am beginning to think that I am getting distracted by the upgrades I am taking on her. I nearly always take beckon malifaux as the forest is too good to pass up. However recently I have been taking living blade a lot and as a result trying to get her into situations where I can make best use of it. Instead I am thinking I probably should be concentrating more on wicked vines and using pushes to do damage. I am also tempted to try a black blood shaman to get black blood on an illuminated to use summon the blood to get lots of area damage for little risk to the illuminated. Dont be afraid to take Living blade, to attack and damage with a 3 inch is a-maze-ing! Its good for effiency as you have to cheat/stone much less for those time when you really need that melee to hit. After all she is rather killy, just in a different way, the blade makes her more so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Is it really a to both attack and damage? I thought it was similar to Justice with dmg only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PositronMike Posted February 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Is it really a to both attack and damage? I thought it was similar to Justice with dmg only? Base ability is to damage. Upgrade is both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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