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Lucius' Hidden Weapons: Does anyone have experience?


The Zinc Lich

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So, I haven't played a whole lot with Lucius. Those few experiences I've had with him, I have never had space/stones to take Hidden Weapons along. Hidden Sniper, in my experience, has just been too good of a (0) action, and Lucius, in my opinion, always wants Legalese and *usually* wants Surprisingly Loyal... so Hidden Weapons always gets the axe.

 

Has anyone gotten good use out of it? I dream of plunking Lucius in the middle of a scheme marker pile and doing something like this, but I don't really know how to generate enough scheme markers to bring Hidden Weapons to ORAORAORA levels.

 

Maybe I should be looking at Neverborn Lucius?

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In my experience it takes a lot of set-up to get the most out of it. If you have the resources Lucius can get the scheme markers down that he wants in a single activation of course, but it's intensive.

 

That being said, I usually take the upgrade and it almost always nets me 1-2 extra attacks over the course of the game. Whether that's worth the stones or not is your call.

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Has anyone gotten good use out of it? I dream of plunking Lucius in the middle of a scheme marker pile and doing something like this, but I don't really know how to generate enough scheme markers to bring Hidden Weapons to ORAORAORA levels.

 

Firstly... JO JO'S IS EPIC!  :D

 

Secondly I don't think Lucius is the sort of Master than wants to be wrecking face Star Platinum style. As Admiral Vorkraft has mentioned it's pretty resource heavy and requires a tonne of setup. I'm sure it'll be pretty good if you pull it off but it seems like it would result in a lot of wasted resources for a gimmicky one shot combo which probably wont contribute to the VP gains of your crew. 

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I've never actually used it but I was playing a game against the Victorias a while back and ended up fighting her in melee with 3 markers around Lucius through a combination of finish the job and randomly flipping tomes on Issue Command. Hidden Weapons would have been pretty stylish there but i'm not sure I'd bother spending the stone on the off chance that situation repeats itself.

 

I don't think Lucius is that upgrade hungry in general though. I'd often only take him with one upgrade since everything other than hidden sniper is quite situational.

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I've never actually used it but I was playing a game against the Victorias a while back and ended up fighting her in melee with 3 markers around Lucius through a combination of finish the job and randomly flipping tomes on Issue Command. Hidden Weapons would have been pretty stylish there but i'm not sure I'd bother spending the stone on the off chance that situation repeats itself.

 

I don't think Lucius is that upgrade hungry in general though. I'd often only take him with one upgrade since everything other than hidden sniper is quite situational.

 

Honestly I'd argue even Hidden Sniper is situational.  You have a master who already needs cards and suits (more specifically often wants Rams) and you're adding another action to compete for those rams.  Back in the playtesting when it didn't need a Ram just to go off, Hidden Sniper was great, but now that it does all it ends up doing is competing for cards on a master who's already hungry for them.

 

I'm kind of at the point where I pass on most upgrades for Lucius now.

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I'd say it's more resource intensive than situational. You can pull it off as long as you have the stones and cards to spend, whereas hidden weapons requires you to set it up and then have your opponent play into it.

Agreed. I think that Lucius is probably the most suit-dependent master I've played, and, while that can make him feel situational, what I've learned to do is just take a heavy SS pool and more aggressively spend them.

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I'd say it's more resource intensive than situational. You can pull it off as long as you have the stones and cards to spend, whereas hidden weapons requires you to set it up and then have your opponent play into it.

 

For a master that already demands a lot of resources, adding something that demands more is situational for me.  Even with some of his efficiency tricks, I usually find myself in top-decking mode with Lucius remarkably fast so if the choice is a 2ss upgrade that needs more resources or 2 more ss, the upgrade usually gets the boot (especially since the really good trigger for Hidden Sniper is double suited neither of which is built in)

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I'm... not sure what Lucius adds to the Guild's repertoire that other Masters don't.  I haven't played him, certainly, but looking him over confuses me.  If you want a Master that helps churn out Scheme Markers, McMourning is great, and also is a melee beast, and gives access to arguably the best support minion in the game, Nurses.  If you want someone to administer extra AP, take McCabe, who's also got a plethora of stymying and buffing talents at his disposal.  Both of these other Masters seem to do Lucius' schtick more consistently, easier, with a better Plan B (combat or evasion), with fewer demands.

 

I started following this thread, hoping to see something come to light in the discussion to prompt me to give him a shot, but I just don't see it.  What tempts people back to our resident bureaucrat that they don't also find in our other Masters, but better?

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I have used this, just to see what I could do with it. The general set up for it was a walk, walk, with commanding presence moving people around. Third action was Lacky to get a scheme marker down and a lawyer forward. I went with the lawyer because of the ability to annoy with fee's or objection if someone was aggressive. Also they tend to be able to survive a bit longer with highest authority. If my plan failed horribly there, then it would at least net another maker. Most of the rest involved taking the mid line and using the sergeant to boot a scheme marker into place and then move and drop another so he could continue booting them up in following turns. 

 

The general conclusion to all of this was that I was able to charge, then drop my zero for three more attacks (four wouldn't have been to tough had I placed a little smarter behind my line), and finish it off What lackeys are for to get Lucius to safety and get another hitter into position. This also allowed me to get Governor's authority off to stifle retaliation back on my models in base contact. (a warden and the lawyer in this case). 

 

Was it worth it? It depends on your pool. The guild offers much better for killing but that can be in your favor if you are bluffing your schemes. People don't expect Mr. Mattheson to hurt. However, you lose out on a lot of support for others. The other thing to be very careful of is if the other crew can hurt you with your own markers, or take out many markers at once. 

 

In the end I can see an argument for the ability to get an extra one or two attacks before swapping out to safety. However, it all depends on your style of play and the scheme pool. 

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I'm... not sure what Lucius adds to the Guild's repertoire that other Masters don't.  I haven't played him, certainly, but looking him over confuses me.  If you want a Master that helps churn out Scheme Markers, McMourning is great, and also is a melee beast, and gives access to arguably the best support minion in the game, Nurses.  If you want someone to administer extra AP, take McCabe, who's also got a plethora of stymying and buffing talents at his disposal.  Both of these other Masters seem to do Lucius' schtick more consistently, easier, with a better Plan B (combat or evasion), with fewer demands.

 

I started following this thread, hoping to see something come to light in the discussion to prompt me to give him a shot, but I just don't see it.  What tempts people back to our resident bureaucrat that they don't also find in our other Masters, but better?

Honestly? He brings a sense of style that no one (with the exception of Colette) can rival. :P

I do find myself wishing he was just slightly better in one of any number of ways, but he's great fun regardless - and super satisfying to win with, when you win with him.

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I'm... not sure what Lucius adds to the Guild's repertoire that other Masters don't.  I haven't played him, certainly, but looking him over confuses me.  If you want a Master that helps churn out Scheme Markers, McMourning is great, and also is a melee beast, and gives access to arguably the best support minion in the game, Nurses.  If you want someone to administer extra AP, take McCabe, who's also got a plethora of stymying and buffing talents at his disposal.  Both of these other Masters seem to do Lucius' schtick more consistently, easier, with a better Plan B (combat or evasion), with fewer demands.

 

I started following this thread, hoping to see something come to light in the discussion to prompt me to give him a shot, but I just don't see it.  What tempts people back to our resident bureaucrat that they don't also find in our other Masters, but better?

 

Regrettably, I think I'm getting to this conclusion the more I put him on the field.  He's got a cool idea that's knee-capped by a lot of limitations (some of which feel very unnecessary).  Commanding Minions is a cool concept, but why is Issue Command once per turn and why do I need a 7 for it to go off?  Collette can Prompt anything three times every turn and casts Prompt on a 6.  Lucius also doesn't buff minions, he just gives them some extra AP, which I'm not sold is worth it (he does have secret service, but that comes up once in a Blue Moon).  He also needs to burn cards getting the minions to do things, but often just getting the extra AP to go off eats the cards needed to make the actions he's giving work.

 

It's annoying because I can see the bare bones of a good master, but it feels like the designers never had a great idea what direction to go with him to make him truly distinct, so he ends up with a loosely tied set of abilities that feel about on par with what I'd expect out of a slightly above average henchman (and to be fair I'd take Nekima leading my crew over Lucius at this point).  Why is "What Lackeys are For" suited, only goes off on a 7 and limited to once per turn?  Why is an ability that can only give minions extra AP also limited to once per turn (and non-austringers although I know the answer to that) where similar abilities have gotten away with multiple uses?  Why does this master do nothing to buff minions outside the extra AP?  Why is the trigger on Suprisingly Loyal double suited?  Why is Hidden Sniper also suited (with a double suited trigger)?  If all of these limitations were removed I still don't see Lucius dominating the games he plays.

 

I guess the old saying "familiarity breeds contempt" is the most apt since my dislike has grown the more I've used him.  As much as I like the idea of Lucius, he's probably going to get shelved for McCabe because McCabe buffs his crew like a boss and is just loads of fun to play whereas Lucius usually sits on the frustrating end of the spectrum where you realize that all of those cool things aren't happening because all of them are suited.

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I believe Lucius can only target things with Issue Command/Commanding Presence once per turn in order to make him different from other masters. Having to spread his AP around forces him into a different playstyle than other support masters. Whether you like that or not is another thing though.

 

I haven't really found him to be that resource intensive to be honest, but it probably comes down to the lists I use him in. Most of the time I run him with a lot of chaff models that don't need cards to do stuff like moving or distracting and I often take a Lawyer or Guard Sergeants so Commanding Presence requires less cheating. Devil's Deal can give you more stones in a pinch but I usually don't spend more than one per round unless Lucius is in a tight spot. That stone is more often than not spent on Hidden Sniper with the critical strike trigger since the other one seems cool but 2-3 extra damage is usually more useful when you have a load of mooks to hoover up scheme markers anyway.

 

Elite Training is also quite a solid buff and makes melee more card-efficient if you can use it. Kind of cooler in Neverborn, but some of his other stuff is less so, which I like.

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Yeah, I haven't had much trouble with Lucius' power level so far. He does require a lot of suits, but he also generates his own Soulstones (as long as you don't mind wounding your own stuff), so it is kind of a wash. There's plenty of stuff out there that generates wounds for you to spend in the Guild: Francisco, the Pale Rider and the Executioner heal themselves, Wastrels are decent healers with Castoffs, and you can always take the Proxy if you need a little bit more. A Pathfinder (my favorite) can also just summon traps to provide a free body for the Devil's Deal. It isn't quite Slop Hauler levels of healing, but it isn't something to scoff at, either.

 

While all he does is "provide free AP", there's no other master out there who generates as many AP as easily. Every trigger on Issue Command provides two AP worth of actions; either a free interact, focus, or defensive stance. That is the real reason you can only use it on a model once per turn. Lucius giving something 3 AP and defensive +3 is kind of gross, yes? Not to mention Commanding Presence. Guild has way more ways to boost Wp than it does to boost Ca actions, and you get a free walk on Lucius when you use it, to boot. He might not be the *fastest* support master in the game, but he certainly gets a move on when he needs to.

 

I also think that people really need to look at taking more Mercenary models with him. Killjoy and Ama no Zako provides bountiful self-healing and a pile of wounds for Devil's Deal, the Ronin provide a Soulstone discount and a stronger melee minion than the Guild otherwise has access to, and the Freikorps Librarian is a decent little offensive casting piece that also gives you a little heal.

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If we are talking about good mercenary models, you should take a look at Performers and Freikorps Trappers, who both are also minions. I have heard Trappers like focus.

 

What? Where did you hear that?

 

But it's true, Performers work great with Lawyers (and on their own, too).

 

Also, I'm not convinced of Ronin for Guild melee minions. Witchling Stalkers are beasts with Lucius. Ronin are only comparable when the target has armor.

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Honestly? He brings a sense of style that no one (with the exception of Colette) can rival. :P

I do find myself wishing he was just slightly better in one of any number of ways, but he's great fun regardless - and super satisfying to win with, when you win with him.

Agreed on both counts.

 

I still don't exactly have him down, but mostly feel that having the correct allocations of Issue Command (and having a list worthy of command) are at the core of how he succeeds, because otherwise he's just a poor version of obey and doesn't have much in the realm of offense unless your opponent is low health or you're sure you can get off red tape, in my opinion.

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I'm... not sure what Lucius adds to the Guild's repertoire that other Masters don't.  I haven't played him, certainly, but looking him over confuses me.  If you want a Master that helps churn out Scheme Markers, McMourning is great, and also is a melee beast, and gives access to arguably the best support minion in the game, Nurses.  If you want someone to administer extra AP, take McCabe, who's also got a plethora of stymying and buffing talents at his disposal.  Both of these other Masters seem to do Lucius' schtick more consistently, easier, with a better Plan B (combat or evasion), with fewer demands.

 

I started following this thread, hoping to see something come to light in the discussion to prompt me to give him a shot, but I just don't see it.  What tempts people back to our resident bureaucrat that they don't also find in our other Masters, but better?

 

The musings of a Scrub..

 

He brings a lot if your a control player imo. So many versatile options and I always felt in total control of the pace of the game but I've only used him once as I've only just put him together.

 

I had a game against Nico on reckoning and ruined him on VP, some fun plays:

 

First turn: walk 3 times help the riflemen get into the centre of the board in good position with dashell a sarg and a lawyer.( maybe not fun but dam handy)

 

second turn lots of rifleman shots killing two necro punks a summoned (1/2 wounds) student of viscera and weakening Toshiro. (lucius paced back and forth giving an extra shot or two and helped a guard move up).

 

Third turn: I used the lawyer to slow another full wound (this time) student of viscera, he flew the vulture in to negate it (a bad play but he was on the back foot).

I used secret assets to kill the vulture and quickly swapped places with an engaged rifleman so he was free to shoot, then I issued a command paying the stone for focus trigger using devil's deal killing another engaged riflemen at 3 wounds.

The rifleman I killed denied his reckoning the one I obeyed took that focused shot at a 3 wound Toshiro to score my VP the most fun of plays :)

All the while a pair of guild guard dropped markers for ALITS and I distracted with the third riflemen that was tied up with a flesh construct.

 

He conceded at the end of turn 4 after I used secret assets to bring a newly summoned punk zombie down to 1 wound, swapped the rifleman that was distracting the construct, issued an order to the rifleman to kill the punk (again stoning for focused trigger this time killing my 2 wound lawyer) then I distracted said construct again.

I then companioned the riflemen to shoot another minion (I forget which a bell maybe..?) that dashell would finish off next activation and my remaining guild guard finished placing my 4th ALITS marker. 

 

I know I missed some other plays but think I got all of that right, maybe I need to pen down notes in game and try posting some batreps up.

 

To sum it up sure other masters excel at other things. Lucas with plant explosives and deliver a message is GG or perdita with make them suffer and assassinate.

However I think if breakthrough and protect territory come up, Lucius is the much better pick (both on placing markers and using the man himself to negate a few of theirs with legalese).

 

When your opponent see's the strategy and schemes he already knows your guild so can hedge against certain masters. If you bring Lucius all his counter plans go out the window and I don't think he would perform any less than the "best" master for the job.

 

Back on the topic. In the one game I've played I did get in a good position to make 3 attacks on the student using secret objectives but "shooting" out of combat or into one without randomising with a SH of 6 and weak damage of 3 (joint highest with the clockwork seeker? Including the ram you need for the TN) was the better play at the time I still had 5-6 SS in the pool and an upgrade slot free so it might? have been worth taking. I will have to give it a try some time.

 

TL:DR Lucius is the man! Not sure about secret objectives seems a bit too situational.

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I've been taking this upgrade as a Hail Mary on Scheme Marker heavy games. Typically I have a lot of Models with Finish the Job.

I had a situation on multiple occasions to use it, but some effects have deterred me from it.

Example 1:

Barbaros once attacked Lucius in the Middle of a failed Spring the Trap attempt. I had 3 right there, but he got initiative and pushed Lucius across the table. Away from them.

Example 2:

Lucius was within Melee with a Stirched but he managed to get Lucius down to 1 wound before I could do anything. If I attacked the stitched Lucius would have died. I did have a couple markers from Issue Command(Tomes Trigger) and dead Death Marshals rhatt were not getting me anything.

So it would have been useful but my opponents had deterred me each time.

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[snipped quotation of my previous post]

 

The musings of a Scrub..

 

[snip]

 

I had a game against Nico on reckoning and ruined him on VP, some fun plays:

 

[snip]

 

Dear sir or madam, I offer you a forceful request: when addressing those with whom you disagree, do not preface your rebuttal with an insult.  You embarrass both yourself and your partner.  As to myself, I am insulted that, before offering even the slightest insight, you have attempted to belittle me.  This is inappropriate behavior, whether you are on an internet forum or in a room with someone.  Please do not do that again.

 

As to your rebuttal itself, I propose that you have posted only your own, singular experience.  This does not offer anything to a discussion regarding Lucius' relative strengths, in comparison with our other Masters.  Technically, any one of us could win with a Master whose card was wholly blank; the question, then, would become not how one did so, but how much better you would have done with a better-designed and streamlined Master.  To wit: virtually everything you posted regarding your Lucius game sounds like something McCabe would have done just as well or better, while also giving powerful bonuses to his crew which Lucius needs to fish for circumstantially.

 

As I said above, I have not played him; his kit does not appeal to me at all (though there are Masters who are downright powerhouses whose kits don't appeal to me, I am speaking wholly to taste in this regard).  But, others post that they have, and have found him wanting.  I am willing to discuss issues of worth and balance (you may recall I ended my then-quoted post by asking if I was missing anything... your post did not answer this question), but for all of us to do so, such discussion would have to be more intellectually honest (giving a mini-batrep where Lucius does virtually nothing, and citing it as comprehensive evidence), and if not polite, at least civil (do not insult your partner). 

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Mr kittens I am at work so phoning this one in.

The implication I was attempting to make was that I was the scrub, for you see I have only played one game with him so far so I am the "noob". I started my post saying this in the expectations that someone with far more skill and knowledge of said master would come along and be able to explain far better than I (in case you missed it "I the scrub") ever could or outright say I'm mistaken in his awesomeness.

As you misinterpreted my meaning that I am the scrub all I can do is say sorry good sir and state that this is a forum where people voice their own opinions and experiences and discuss them...Which is exactly what I did. You stated he seems lackluster I gave my limited experience with him a quick go with examples of how I found him to be anything but lackluster.

In the case of mcabe being better (I love using Lucas btw) he can give a model reactivate and nimble and a push or two sure, but he can't make 3 guild rifle men take 3 extra focused shots a turn nor can he easily kill a model of his own without wasting ap, he also doesn't have a melee buff aura the ability to "regain" soulstones,shoot whilst engaged or non randomising the list can go on but I should do some work.

Disclaimer all things said by wopr1986 are his own opinion. He maintains the right to voice his opinions and be wrong or right and if you knew him he will always insult himself as self depreciation is an easy form of humour and a good scapegoat for being wrong. He will only show disrespect when he is on the receiving end first and always values the opinions of others.

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Ah, thank you, Wopr.  I am delighted to have been wrong.  When I saw my post quoted, followed by your comment about scrubbery, I inferred you made a connection between the two.  While there's no way to know how many other people made the same inference, perhaps seeing that happen will be useful to you in the future.

 

Regardless, yes, I did apparently make a mistake, and I own that.  Back to discussing!

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As I have read these postings, it seems we haven't discussed the less obvious benefit of lucas and Lucius. What models do they allow you to bring in while playing the guild faction. Sure we could play them as a different faction but we are in the Guild section, so with that in mind does that make a significant difference in the power of the master?

 

As an example, in a previous thread a lot of discussion was made about the guilds lack of wp options. Does Lucius ability to take mimics with an upgrade greatly make up for this? The ability to take a model like the beckoner to draw models into a fire lane? Doppelganger copying an opponents best tricks and cheating initiative flips? I am not trying to point at those two models themselves. Just illustrating that mcmourning, lucus, and lucius all bring that dual faction option which will change a game enough that I think it should be addressed.  

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