premeasuring

[Dirial]

I've seen the "guessing distances is a skill" argument a lot and I have to say that's incorrect.  Guessing distances is just something you pick up in response to a limitation, not necessarily a skill you need to figure out the right course of action.

 

Not get to scientific, but "something you pick up in response to a limitation" is pretty much the definition of a skill. Also, I find it to be way more difficult to estimate distances in inches than in the metric system, which makes playing Hordes way more of a guessing game than Malifaux. And I appreciate that very much about the latter.

[LunarSol]

Not get to scientific, but "something you pick up in response to a limitation" is pretty much the definition of a skill. Also, I find it to be way more difficult to estimate distances in inches than in the metric system, which makes playing Hordes way more of a guessing game than Malifaux. And I appreciate that very much about the latter.

 

A good rule of thumb is to remember that 4 inches is about 10 cm.  If you can see things in 10 cm chunks, its pretty easy to get an idea where something is in the 8-12" band that matters the most in the game.

[Mastershake]

Not get to scientific, but "something you pick up in response to a limitation" is pretty much the definition of a skill. Also, I find it to be way more difficult to estimate distances in inches than in the metric system, which makes playing Hordes way more of a guessing game than Malifaux. And I appreciate that very much about the latter.

 

skill

the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well

 

Skills don't come from limitations...not to get scientific.  I've played WM a lot, the lack of pre-measuring hurts that game more than it helps it.  It naturally has a high learning curve and adding distance guessing or trying to hammer into a new players head that you can only measure certain things doesn't do it credit and just increases the barrier for entry.

 

You also get less distance fuzzing or heated debate about distances in games where pre-measuring is allowed since in a game with pre-measuring you check before anything is really on the line whereas in games where it's banned you're committed to a course of action and having it fail could mean just sacrificing a model or losing the game because you guessed a mm wrong.

[SpiralngCadavr]

dancater, fair enough, and the counter (sister?) argument refuting realism as an end is an interesting one.

 

 

 

Regarding measuring as a skill, I got really good at guessing distances  in 40k back when artillery worked based on you actually guessing the range. Like, probably a little unhealthily good, where I occasionally adjusted my guesses by fractions of an inch even in the 2'+ range to hit models with the dead center of the blast from eyeballing the distance and instinct told me it was a little further or closer than I initially though. Not often, but enough that it made a few opponents nervous when I put more artillery down.

 

Was it a skill? Yes. Was it enjoyable/rewarding to be right? Definitely. Did it have anything to do with tactical merit? No. 

 

I think it's a fun to guess ranges, but far from necessary to make a game interesting, and I'd consider bluffing (position, hand, or schemes, for instance) or weighing chances of, and gain/loss from, success or failure to be much more a representation of tactical skill, compared to being used to what distance looks like.

[Dirial]

skill

the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well

 

Skills don't come from limitations...not to get scientific. 

Of course they do. How do you suppose they are aquired?

Aside from that, I wholeheartedly agree that lack of premeasuring hurts Warmachine.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The best question about whether or not pre-measuring or not adds to the game is to ask, does not allowing pre-measuring make the game better and more enjoyable, especially for newer players. In most instances, although I admit there are probably some exceptions, the answer is no. In my experience those who champion no pre-measuring tend to be people who have gotten used to the mechanic, having played such games for awhile, and they have gotten good at the skill. Very rarely, almost never, do I hear of a new player, or a longtime player who isn't good at guessing ranges, extolling the virtues of such a system.

 

As mentioned it makes sense if you are able to kite an enemy, to not allow pre-measuring, although in such a game I'd often argue there is a problem with the rules if you are able to have that kind of mechanic. But forcing a player to utilize a skill which adds nothing important or fun to the game, not necessary. I also don't buy the argument that it adds verisimilitude that is to be desired to the game. The fact that the game doesn't work in realtime with all players taking actions at the same time, the fact that I can't drop prone, the fact that I can't take advantage of covering fire, the fact that there is essentially a forcefield around the edge of the table, all these things mean that the game is already abstracted to a great degree. When estimating range, in real life you often don't get the amount of time most players, even those who are good at it, take to estimate range for placing a shot.

 

The game just works better, and plays faster with allowing remeasuring. In actuallity I honestly haven't played any miniatures game that works better not allowing pre-measuring.

[SpiralngCadavr]

@Dirial, But you've got those arbitrarily varied bubbles of premeasuring, plus a number of ways to exploit passive distant checks, and melee range widgets

 

Yeah... I haven't played in a while, but expect to house rule open measuring when I do...

[Omenbringer]

Mastershake, on 03 Jan 2015 - 02:58 AM, said:

A few feet?  Pistols aren't exactly sniper rifles, but a few feet in distance should at most mean the difference between a clean hit and going to edge of the black unless you're really stretching the weapons maximum range or a really bad shot (sorry I was an armorer and had to teach a lot of bad shooters how to handle pistols).  Playing a miniatures game usually means accepting that weapon ranges are entirely related to balance and have no bearing on actual ranges, since even a 9mm like the beretta should be able to cleanly hit targets across an average Malifaux board.

 

Disagree quite a bit with you on this.

 

I also have taught marksmanship for 15 years for the Marine Corps on everything from pistols to long range machine guns (effective ranges in excess of 1600 meters). Given their shorter barrels (typically 6"), heavier projectiles, smaller powder charges and heavier recoil, pistols have a ton of "slop" in their accuracy that can and do throw rounds way off target especially as range increases (and it doesn't take a big increase a few feet is more than sufficient). Even when placed in a heavily braced and weighted firing vice shooting at static targets under ideal conditions, pistols exhibit large variances in accuracy between shots that increases quickly as the range does (a fairly accurate 3 degree MOA at 3 yards is much tighter than the same 3 degree MOA at 25 yards). Using the standard Military M16 "BZO" target as a reference, a 3 degree MOA at 36 yards is about a 2" circle while at the 300 yards it is meant to simulate it will be almost 3 feet across. Add in environmental effects, moving targets, the "human factor" (person shooting) and variances in quality both of weaponry and ammunition and it adds up to very short effective ranges.

 

In scale the Average Malifaux board is also about 56 yards which is about double the maximum effective range of a modern M9 Berrata pistol (in a skilled shooters hands on a static target range). Even at closers range there is a very big difference between the effect of "a clean hit on the edge of black" (on a static target this could represent anything from a hit in the arm to the thigh to the scalp of a man standing straight up with his arms at his side) and a casualty producing hit in either of the "Kill Boxes" (center of the chest or the "T-Box" in the face).

 

Going back to the "fantasy aspect" this would mean the difference between dropping that rampaging Warpig coming toward you with a clean hit to the brain or heart and just pissing it off by merely winging it in the shoulder plate. The ranges of "pistol type" weapons in Malifaux isn't that far off realistic but the Shot guns and rifles are laughably unrealistic. Of course this was done for "balance" reasons but is still annoying for me. I dont have an issue with Hans or Nino (or any other model employing a rifle) being able to shoot across the board though I tend to use a lot of elevation and terrain in my typical layouts (around 50-70%) so it is mitigated quite a bit.

[The Godlyness]

Metric system vs 'Merica!!!

I don't know what I would do if malifaux was played using cm. Be confused and (3) flip table. (I am a master after all)

You crazy people driving hundreds of km an hour is crazy. I will just stick to my good ol mph.

M1e had no pre measuring. Which if charges failed they failed. Now it's impossible for charges to fail. So to the original poster if you can say hey I am going to charge Then measure and find out your are out of range I assume you take a different course of action. And while doing so ipso facto wasting time. Or while waiting for your opponent you can measure. And Make strategic choices of how to win and not limiting yourself to how you think it should be played.