A little bit of everything ...

[surly]

Some questions that came up in our local gaming group so far:

 

1) Dreamer and his Upgrade Dreams of Pain, the Upgrade states that you have to name a Nightmare. When do you have to name it, before or after flipping the card? Say you have a 11 in hand and want so summon Lelu, then you flip a 10, so you decide to go with a "free" Stitched Together instead.

 

2.1) How does damage prevention work with the Nexus of Power Upgrade? Say you are at full life and get hit for 7 damage. You use a soulstone to prevent some damage, will you get healed for an additional 2 life thanks to the upgrade? Or can it only restore life you lost earlier?

2.2) Again, Nexus of Power. You have 10 life total but have already lost 5 of them. You get hit for 7 damage again and used a soulstone which prevented 2 damage. You also have the Nexus of Power upgrade attached, will you life with 2 life, or are you dead?

 

3) Lady Justice hits and wounds So'mer who triggers Loudest Squeel. Lady J has the Vendetta Upgrade attached which triggers Onslaught.

What happens first, can So'mer push away with his Squeel or can Lady J hit him again first?

(Our guess: the player who's on turn decides what goes first)

 

4) Similar situation, Viktoria of Blood has only 1 Wound left and hits and kills a model with Black Blood. She triggers Into the Fray, can she heal first, or does she receive the damage before?

 

6) Just to be sure, Poison and Burning can be prevented using a soulstone, correct? (or at least a part of it when it comes to burning sometimes)

 

7) To interact with a sheme marker you have to get in base contact with it. So what if your opponent puts a model with 40mm or 50mm on top of the marker? (Can you even move over markers?)

 

8) Again we're pretty sure about this one, just to be on the safe side: say you activated Dreamer, then transformed him into LCB, then sacrificed LCB just to transform back into Dreamer. However, Dreamer can not activate again this turn, correct?

 

 

Thanks a lot, wish you all a nice weekend

[Dirial]

ad 1) You name the model before flipping.

 

ad 2.1) and 2.2) Please note that Nexus has been errata'd. No healing of Dg Prevention at all.

 

ad 3) An action producing further actions is only resolved one the produced action is resolved. I don't have my book here for a page reference, though.

 

ad 4) Cannot reference the card, so no idea. Ability text?

 

ad 6) (Why no 5?) Yes.

 

ad 7) MArkers have Ht 0 and don't prevent movement unless stated otherwise. So you can move above, and the opponent has to move the model (or kill it) to interact with the marker. Tough luck.

 

ad 8) No, he cannot.

[Myyrä]

Dirial got most of them right

3) The two triggers have the same timing so defender's trigger is resolved first.

4) Yes, no, maybe, nobody knows but many people have opinions.

[Dirial]

Dirial got most of them right

3) The two triggers have the same timing so defender's trigger is resolved first.

4) Yes, no, maybe, nobody knows but many people have opinions.

 

I cannot reference the cards at the moment, so please indulge me. Vendetta triggers off damaging (so after Step 5, from memory). Squeal triggers after resolving, so also after Step 5. In the case of the same timing, defender triggers first. I follow you up to this point. But isn't there a box somewhere that says, like I said, something like "An action is resolved after all actions triggered by it are resolved"? Shouldn't this mean, that Squeal ("after resolving") is triggered after any triggered actions, like the additional attack of Vendetta?

 

Seriously, this just confuses me. Is it a case of the same word describing different things, or do those rules contradict each other? Or is my memory just bad, and I didn't remember something correctly?

[Myyrä]

I cannot reference the cards at the moment, so please indulge me. Vendetta triggers off damaging (so after Step 5, from memory). Squeal triggers after resolving, so also after Step 5. In the case of the same timing, defender triggers first. I follow you up to this point. But isn't there a box somewhere that says, like I said, something like "An action is resolved after all actions triggered by it are resolved"? Shouldn't this mean, that Squeal ("after resolving") is triggered after any triggered actions, like the additional attack of Vendetta?

After resolving triggers don't actually wait until the action is totally resolved. Instead they are resolved after step 5. It is quite confusing. If the triggers waited until the action is completely resolved they would only be resolved after they have already been resolved, which doesn't make much sense.

The callout box you are referring to can be found on page 36 in rules manual.

[Durza]

Pretty sure with the black blood thing the first players ability would go off first, so if Viks player went first, she would heal then take black blood, but if the other player went first she would die, I could be wrong though.

 

Also, burning is reduced by armour while poison is not, the poison really only comes into play with Sebastion, who makes a model suffering damage from poison take an additional 2 damage, but even then if you burn a stone on damage prevention you only need to prevent 1 damage.

[Dirial]

After resolving triggers don't actually wait until the action is totally resolved. Instead they are resolved after step 5. It is quite confusing. If the triggers waited until the action is completely resolved they would only be resolved after they have already been resolved, which doesn't make much sense.

The callout box you are referring to can be found on page 36 in rules manual.

 

Thanks a lot! I just had a knot in my mind.

[The Godlyness]

@Myrra lol.

For the vik question she had to do damge to kill the model right? So when the model is damaged black blood goes off. So she would die (sans soul stone prevention) before her into the fray would actually go off.

[MasterDisaster]

Some questions that came up in our local gaming group so far:

 

Say you have a 11 in hand and want so summon Lelu, then you flip a 10, so you decide to go with a "free" Stitched Together instead.

 

 

I think you may have been a tad confused with this one. You name the model before you flip. In your given example you name Lelu, have an 11 in hand but flip a 10. You cannot then change the name on the model being summoned from Lelu to Stitched to suit the card you've flipped.

 

The spell works by making the TN of the spell 10 :mask  + the SS cost of previously named model the model (in this case +7 because Lelu was named). This means that to summon Lelu the TN is 17 :mask. As the Dreamer's Ca is 6 and assuming the flipped 10 is also a  the spell fails to meet the TN of 17   and therefor fails. You'd have to cheat an 11, 12 or 13 of  , a Red Joker or any card higher than a 10 if you'd used a SS for the extra  to summon Lelu at that point otherwise the spell fails and the action is wasted. You cannot change the TN of the spell by changing the name of the minion to suit the card you flipped.

 

Now onto the Viks

 

 

 

4) Similar situation, Viktoria of Blood has only 1 Wound left and hits and kills a model with Black Blood. She triggers Into the Fray, can she heal first, or does she receive the damage before?

 

 

 

"Into the Fray: The first time this model kills another model during it's activation, this model may heal 1/2/3" 

 

and

 

"Black Blood: All models without Black Blood within  1 suffer 1 damage when this model suffers damage."

 

This is pretty clear cut as far as I can tell. Viktoria of Blood only heals once the model is dead, Black Blood activates when the target suffers damage. Viktoria of Blood would suffer 1 Dmg before the model is killed and therefor would die before she has a chance to heal via Into the Fray. Also, one last quick note. Into the Fray is an Ability and not a Trigger. 

 

The Damage is inflicted onto the Black Blooded Victim first, this in turn causes Black Blood to activate killing Vik before the model is killed and therefor dies before she can heal. This is how I understand it, if I'm wrong though please feel free to correct me. 

[Myyrä]

@Myrra lol.

For the vik question she had to do damge to kill the model right? So when the model is damaged black blood goes off. So she would die (sans soul stone prevention) before her into the fray would actually go off.

The problem is that rules don't really say that model is killed after it takes damage. Model reduced to 0 wounds is removed from the play as killed. That could just as easily mean that model at 0 wounds counts as killed. Some people also seem to think that taking damage and reducing wounds happen at different times, but there is no mention of such weirdness in the rulebook either.

It could be that model is killed at the same time it takes damage. That would mean that black blood and into the fray would be resolved at the same time, in which case the acting model's ability would take priority.

[Math Mathonwy]

Some people also seem to think that taking damage and reducing wounds happen at different times, but there is no mention of such weirdness in the rulebook either.

That's probably a hold-out from the previous edition, in fact.

[wopr1986]

It could be that model is killed at the same time it takes damage. That would mean that black blood and into the fray would be resolved at the same time, in which case the acting model's ability would take priority.

If they are resolved at the same time the defenders trigger happens first so black blood before fray. 99% sure on that but at work so can't reference the page number

[MasterDisaster]

If they are resolved at the same time the defenders trigger happens first so black blood before fray. 99% sure on that but at work so can't reference the page number

 

*pedantic rant begins*

 

Again... Black Blood and Into the Fray are abilities NOT TRIGGERS!

 

*pedantic rant ends*

[Myyrä]

...and attacking model's abilities are resolved before defending model's abilities.

[surly]

Thanks a lot for all the answers

Another quick question though, haven't heard of the Power Nexus Errata yet, where can it be found?

Also, just to summarize:

- attacking abilities go of before defensive ones

- defending triggers go of before attacking ones

In which time order do triggers and abilities correlate then?

[Adran]

If you down load the FAQ there are the Errata at the end of that document.

 

Edit -

While I remember, most of the errata'd cards have the correct version printed in the relevant wave 2 arsenal deck.

[MasterDisaster]

Downloads section of the forum at the top of this page, failing that here

 

http://wyrd-games.net/community/files/file/21-malifaux-2e-faq-errata/

[The Godlyness]

How did you kill it. I assume she used her sweet sword. Which does damage.

I guess in my sweet opinion. You have to deal damage first before killing a model. So black blood would happen first. Seems most logical and dare I say it common sense.

Also how would you resolve Victoria hitting Colette and Colette triggering death defying. She hit 0 wounds must be killed so you heal right?

Any love Colette yet?

[Bengt]

I guess in my sweet opinion. You have to deal damage first before killing a model. So black blood would happen first. Seems most logical and dare I say it common sense.

The question is if you should pause for damage effects before "immediately" killing the model, or do damage and killing effects simultaneously (and therefore subject them to General Timing*). I don't think "common sense" adequately answers that, but to each their own.

 

* Wyrd should publish a scenario featuring a master called "General Timing" that has lots of hard to figure out abilities.

[Ludvig]

Thanks a lot for all the answers

Another quick question though, haven't heard of the Power Nexus Errata yet, where can it be found?

Also, just to summarize:

- attacking abilities go of before defensive ones

- defending triggers go of before attacking ones

In which time order do triggers and abilities correlate then?

 

Regarding timing (from p46 box)

Whenever an ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first. If two Abilities happen at the same time, resolve them in the following order:

1 The acting model resolves its Abilities

2 The defending model (if there is one) resolves its Abilities

3 Any other models controlled by the first player resolves all of their ability effects in any order the first player chooses.

4 Any other models controlled by the Second player resolves all of their ability effects in any order theSecond player chooses.

 

Regarding triggers it's according to mentioned timing in the trigger description and as you said: defender first if simultaneous.

[Ludvig]

How did you kill it. I assume she used her sweet sword. Which does damage.

I guess in my sweet opinion. You have to deal damage first before killing a model. So black blood would happen first. Seems most logical and dare I say it common sense.

Also how would you resolve Victoria hitting Colette and Colette triggering death defying. She hit 0 wounds must be killed so you heal right?

Any love Colette yet?

 

Edited for confusion

[The Godlyness]

i am going to ignore that last post.

 

 

Here is why Black blood would Go off before killed. it is actually REALLY REALLY simple.

 

If the model is killed before black blood Goes off, Black blood would not go off. no model is in play to make a from. 

 

So if you truly believe that killing a model with black blood completely nulls and voids Black blood. Then i can say with 100% assurance that you are not playing malifaux. you are playing some other game that is like malifaux but instead of using the rules you  make up your own rules and do your own thing.

 

 

 

Now to respond to that last post. have you read the rule book under triggers? might help you.

Edited November 21, 2014 by The Godlyness

[Mike3838]

I think it's more that people are saying black blood and kill might happen simultaneously, not that the kill happens first

[Ludvig]

i am going to ignore that last post.

 

 

Here is why Black blood would Go off before killed. it is actually REALLY REALLY simple.

 

If the model is killed before black blood Goes off, Black blood would not go off. no model is in play to make a from. 

 

So if you truly believe that killing a model with black blood completely nulls and voids Black blood. Then i can say with 100% assurance that you are not playing malifaux. you are playing some other game that is like malifaux but instead of using the rules you  make up your own rules and do your own thing.

 

Now to respond to that last post. have you read the rule book under triggers? might help you.

 

I was in complete agreement that black blood goes off first since it is a defender trigger, it is also quite specifically mentioned on p. 32 under triggers that are timed After Damaging that: "These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage".

 

I stand corrected. Re-reading p 33 I must confess I misread that last part and thought the damage flip was a part of step 5 which was incorrect and would cause no end to the headache. So step five is only "announce who got the highest total" and then we move on to all the effects of the attack which makes trigger timing as you said. Think I got caught up in the Sonnia-thread and started thinking a lot of things happened during step 5 (which is completely off).

 

Sorry for confusing this situation needlessly.

[The Godlyness]

The problem is that rules don't really say that model is killed after it takes damage. Model reduced to 0 wounds is removed from the play as killed. That could just as easily mean that model at 0 wounds counts as killed. Some people also seem to think that taking damage and reducing wounds happen at different times, but there is no mention of such weirdness in the rulebook either.

It could be that model is killed at the same time it takes damage. That would mean that black blood and into the fray would be resolved at the same time, in which case the acting model's ability would take priority.

 

 

...and attacking model's abilities are resolved before defending model's abilities.

 

 

I think it's more that people are saying black blood and kill might happen simultaneously, not that the kill happens first

 

Trying to say viktorias Into the fray goes first means the enemy is killed. and the killed model is removed and is not there to do BB. Which is nonsense. So BB has to go first regardless if it is reduced to 0 by the damage and killed.

 

Other After killing abilities. Love The Job: When this model kills an enemy model it may heal 3/4/5 damage.

(1) Cleaver (Ml 6:ram / Rst: Df / Rg: :close2): Target suffers 4/5/7 damage. After killing a model with this Attack, this model heals 2/3/4 damage.

Into the Fray: The first time this model kills another model during its Activation, this model may heal 1/2/3 damage.

[Math Mathonwy]

I was in complete agreement that black blood goes off first since it is a defender trigger,

It is an Ability, not a Trigger.