Tengu and Clockwork Traps

[daemonkin]

Just a quick one as it cropped up in a game recently.

 

Tengu have shooting star 'at the start of this model's activation it may be placed within 5" of a friendly scheme marker'

 

Traps have 'at the beginning of an enemy model activation it must take a Wk duel or receive slow' [paraphrase]

 

My question is which one happens first? My tengu wanted to escape the trap but my opponent thought the trap's ability  goes first. In the end it was ruled trap goes first.

 

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this.

 

D.

[Adran]

The general timing box on p. 46 (big rulebook) says: 

 

first, the acting model

then, the defending model

then, the other models of the first player

then, the other models of the second player.

 

Tengu first

[zFiend]

Yup. Acting model goes first.

[daemonkin]

Nice to know. Thanks.

 

D.

[The Godlyness]

Well....yes Tengu first. But if it started its activation near the trap. It still would have to test.

Reasons.

Both abilities trigger. Both would have to be resolved. Placing the model 5" away is fine and dandy but it still started its activation near the trap. So it would still need to test.

Placing the model 5" away does not just null and void the trap even though it's out of range Now. It still started its activation near it.

Course only my opinion. And logical.

[DocSchlock]

^ This is correct. Even though the Tengu is 5" away, it still activated within range of the Trap, so the Trap's ability would still go off normally.

[theJudge]

This is a weird one.  I can see a point for both sides of the discussion.  I just cant decide which one is right.

[DocSchlock]

The only requirement of the Trap going off is that a model activates within range. The Tengu activates within range, then moves 5". There is no additional range requirement for the Trap's ability, nor does it say "the model must be within X inches when this ability is resolved." It would still happen regardless of where the model is when the Trap's ability resolves.

[sharpobjects]

As soon as Tengu begins its activation it has to take the check if its in range of the Trap regardless of its own ability to be placed in btb with a friendly scheme marker within 5 inches at the start of its activation. 

 

Unless someone is going to debate the words "start" versus "begin".

 

I do not advise anyone to take that position.

[Seregon]

Indeed. Both abilities happen, it's just that the Tengu one happens first.

[Adran]

Interesting

I hadn't thought of it that way, I'd kind of been thinking that the at start of activation things would take place one at a time.

Unfortunatly on that view I would be generating AP before I got the slow from the trap. Which is obviously wrong.

[Bengt]

Interesting

I hadn't thought of it that way, I'd kind of been thinking that the at start of activation things would take place one at a time.

Unfortunatly on that view I would be generating AP before I got the slow from the trap. Which is obviously wrong.

Resolve Activation Effects and Generate AP are discrete steps, see p 36.

 

Also on p 36 it says the model's controller decides the order of Activation Effects, which is more specific than General Timing.

[Ausplosions]

Which means the acting model can move before being affected.

[Math Mathonwy]

Which means the acting model can move before being affected.

Yes, but it will still be affected so it doesn't really matter in over 99% of the cases.

[The Godlyness]

1% is Sebastian. If the tengu had poison +1 and started near Sebastian. Him being placed 5" away would save him from taking the extra +2 damage. Still would take one but that is acceptable.

[The Godlyness]

Double post is double.

[Ausplosions]

Yes, but it will still be affected so it doesn't really matter in over 99% of the cases.

No, it wouldn't.

[Math Mathonwy]

No, it wouldn't.

Why? It started its Activation within 5" as has been pointed out in the thread a couple of times already. If you're going to disagree, could you please elaborate even minimally on your reasoning? Because otherwise your posts are worse than worthless.

[Kadeton]

It's an interesting way to think about how abilities are motivated and resolved. (I'm using 'motivated' because other common English words to describe an event which produces a causal effect, like 'activated' or 'triggered', are already defined by the game.) There are different ways to process it, and the rules don't explicitly define a method as far as I'm aware. For this situation, you could:

1. Activate a model, and create a 'stack' of all the abilities that are motivated by it activating. Resolve those abilities in resolution order.
2. Activate a model. In resolution order, check for an ability that is motivated by starting its activation, and resolve it fully before checking for the next one.

Note that both methods use the same resolution order (acting model, defending model, other models of the first player, other models of the second player) but apply them at different stages of the process.

 

Ausplosions' reasoning seems to be based on (2), but I think many people - especially people who are used to resolution mechanics in, say, Magic the Gathering - would intuitively expect (1).

 

Personally I would go with (1) as a general case, but I don't have my rulebook to hand to check how strongly the rules suggest it as the intended option.

[Bengt]

Note that both methods use the same resolution order (acting model, defending model, other models of the first player, other models of the second player) but apply them at different stages of the process.

P 36 does not elaborated on method 1 vs 2, but it's very clear that the controller decides the order.

[Myyrä]

P 36 does not elaborated on method 1 vs 2, but it's very clear that the controller decides the order.

Except many of the abilities being discussed here aren't on the activating model.

[Bengt]

Except many of the abilities being discussed here aren't on the activating model.

P 36: "A model's controller chooses what order these effects resolve on the model if more than one occurs at the beginning of the model's Activation."

 

It does not differentiate between the "owner" of the effects, the controller always chooses.

[Myyrä]

P 36: "A model's controller chooses what order these effects resolve on the model if more than one occurs at the beginning of the model's Activation."

 

It does not differentiate between the "owner" of the effects, the controller always chooses.

I don't think that means what you think it means. "A model's controller" is an extremely weird choice of words if it means what you think it means, because this isn't exactly the first reference to the activating model.

[480]

A models controller is the player that activates the model. Usually you unless your opponent uses an obey type effect to allow them to activate the model for you.

[jonahmaul]

Yeah, it's a pretty important definition in Malifaux.  I've not got my cards to hand but why would Seb's extra 2 damage from poison not activate in this example?  Are they not both at beginning of activation?

[Ausplosions]

Why? It started its Activation within 5" as has been pointed out in the thread a couple of times already. If you're going to disagree, could you please elaborate even minimally on your reasoning? Because otherwise your posts are worse than worthless.

 

 

Then why would the Tengu not take extra poison damage from Sebastian? There is no difference.

 

The movement effect and the Duel happen at the same time. 

 

 

Wait. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I was writing this I realised your point. Funny how a few beers can do that.

 

 

I have been swayed. Both effects happen, the controller just gets to decide what order. Cheers!