Dealing with a shooty list. Guild vs. Guild

[Jimbobovalsocks]

I had a hard game last night against our top wargamer at my local club. He was playing a standard Perdita list with the boxed set contents and I had Sonia criid but with a mixture of Death Marshalls and Witch Hunters. I really struggled with getting accross the board without getting shot by his models (especially nino) and I also struggled to get anything through against Perdita with her df of 9!! I think the terrain was against me to an extent as there were lots of large open corridors for him to shoot down but that's not really a good enough excuse! Any tips on how to deal with this kind of shooty list?

 

P.S. I know that I should be concentrating on Strategies and schemes but I found he had so much of the board locked down that I had lost most of my models bythe 3rd turn and was really struggling to move around the board.

 

P.P.S Any schemes which shooting lists are particularly weak against/are good to pick against them?

[Dirial]

First, let me redirect you here:

 

Guide

 

(I know I should really update that.)

 

Then, let me reiterate: Terrain is a perfectly good excuse. Large shooting corridors are a balance problem.

 

Special Perdita advice: So she had Df 9? Don't gun for her. Gun for Francisco, and blast on Perdita. Francisco is the weak link in most Ortega lists. (He's not weak, of course, but Df 5 Wp 6 is just so delicious for Sonnia.)

 

What did Nino do? He doesn't do much damage, really. I normally just ignore him most of the game.

[Thaarup]

1. Flamewall is your friend...with a certain totem you can get two walls off per turn. 

2. As Dirial stated; do not attack Perdita directly. Use other closeby enemy models or friendly models to get blast off. Pathfinders trap is perfect for the job (WP 6).

3. If you really want to, you can target Perdita with Sonnia using her +2 CA boost...combined with a bonus flip from perditas high WP it helps a bit.  

[akaean]

It sounds like you fell right into your opponents trap and wasted an inordinate amount of resources targeting Perdita.   As opposed to picking off the more vulnerable support pieces your opponent had.  

 

I picked up Sonnia recently (guild mastery 5/7!) and have played several games with her.  One trick you can use against shooters is to block off a shooting corridor with a Flame Wall (you ARE taking Cherufe's Imprint, aren't you, because it is amazing).  Furthermore if your opponent declares a faction that you suspect might be heavy shooting (Guild and Gremlins come to mind) you can take a Malifaux Child to cast a second Flame Wall.  Your opponent cannot shoot you if they cannot see you.

 

Speaking of that, while the Ortegas and most other shooters typically need to see what they are shooting at.  Guild have a ton of ranged threats that don't care about pesky limitations like "seeing the enemy".   Guild Austringers can hide out of sight and shoot shots out to 18 inches away.  As soon as somebody is on fire, Sonnia and Sam can unload without any regard for line of sight at all- which is especially helpful when you can generate your own ht5 blocking terrain.

 

Make sure that you have some soft cover in any "shooting cooridors"  at least give yourself the option to dart from cover to cover as you approach.   Perdita herself may be able to ignore cover, but if she's doing that she's not ignoring armor / incorporeal, or drawing a new hand.  It doesn't really matter as much for Marshals and Witchunters, but if you include a few Constructs in your crew- especially ones with grinding halt- it can help immensely.

 

If you have a 6+  in your hand, the pathfinder is an excellent tool for slowing down shooting opponents.   He can place a Clockwork Trap within 4 inches of himself for a 0 action, or move one 6 inches away, 6 more inches in any direction.  With movement 5 and from the shadows, you can deploy him out of los on a flank, and use him to throw traps at shooters.  Move, Trap, Move out of line of sight, etc.  Each trap has a 2 inch  (engages the enemy so they can't shoot), and has a 2 inch   that forces a wk13 duel or gain slow (and most shooters have a pretty low walk).  And while the Pathfinder doesn't randomize onto his traps... the enemy will have to randomize into the combat if they try to shoot into it.   And with df5 armour+2... most shooters will have an exceptionally difficult time removing them.

 

Also consider the Hunter or Peacekeeper.  Chain spear is very usefull against ranged opponents.  You shots automatically give out slow, and drag your opponent into your loving arms.  and not many shooters (except Dita herself) can stand up to a Peacekeeper or even a Hunter in close combat.   Added Hilarity if Nino is on high ground and the Chain Spear Drag trigger forces him to take fall damage.   The Hunter is an excellent shooting platform as well because his end of turn push can help put him into a good position and his  flips against models who haven't activated yet gives him a bit of flexibility when shooting at targets who are in cover.  

[Jimbobovalsocks]

 

What did Nino do? He doesn't do much damage, really. I normally just ignore him most of the game.

Ah, he was horrible. He was positioned so that he had a clear view 36 inches across the whole of the board and then another corridor to his left 9into my half of the table) which meant that he was able to focus and shoot sonnia from turn 1 and then catch my other modes as they moved accross the board down his other 'corridor'. He has that thing when he can disgard a card to make three shots against one target and he has an inbuilt + to his attack flips so he one-shotedthe judge, took out my guild guard and then he had an Austringer too so that once my models had weathered the storm to get into cover, his Austringer took off the last few wounds.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

Thanks all for the excellent advice, flame wall would certainly have been very useful last night, as would have not exposing Sonnia to take shots at a Df9 Perdita in hard cover!!

[Dirial]

Ah, he was horrible. He was positioned so that he had a clear view 36 inches across the whole of the board and then another corridor to his left 9into my half of the table) which meant that he was able to focus and shoot sonnia from turn 1 and then catch my other modes as they moved accross the board down his other 'corridor'. He has that thing when he can disgard a card to make three shots against one target and he has an inbuilt + to his attack flips so he one-shotedthe judge, took out my guild guard and then he had an Austringer too so that once my models had weathered the storm to get into cover, his Austringer took off the last few wounds.

 

Wait, what? He one-shotted the Judge? The guy with the 1/2/4 Dg profile one-shotted our most resilient Henchman? What?

[zFiend]

Wait, what? He one-shotted the Judge? The guy with the 1/2/4 Dg profile one-shotted our most resilient Henchman? What?

Headshot trigger?

[Michaud]

He'd have to be really close for Headshot, IIRC.   I don't think you can do that 36" away.  10" I think?

[Dirial]

He'd have to be really close for Headshot, IIRC.   I don't think you can do that 36" away.  10" I think?

 

Correct. And he has to damage for it, and the opponent's hand has to be depleted. Without Crit Strike his weak is 1, so one SS for prevention would save the Judge on its own.

[zFiend]

Yeah I know, but that's the only way to oneshot the Judge.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

I had no soulstones left, he used his 'flurry' (can't remember the right name for it) to discard a card to make 3 shots against the same model. I suppose his Austringer might have knocked some wounds off of my Judge model but if you think about it with rams he could do enough damage to kill the Judge with 3 shots. He also killed a (slightly damaged) guild guard and death marshall. All in all a pain in the bum! I found the sparse terrain, good positioning of Nino and the adittion of an austringer to hastle you even when you are in cover to be a very hard combination to play against!

 

Edit: Mother flipper! I've just re-read Nino's card and I can't see any ability that let's him discard a card to do 3 shots against the same target! Where did he get that from? Did he have out of date cards, have I missed something or did he (let's be kind and say accidently) cheat?

[entropolous]

I believe the ortegas have an upgrade that gives a model rapid fire (sh version of flurry)

[Furio]

Yup, it's the upgrade "hair trigger" a must take for nino in my opinion.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

Where are you finding this upgrade? The Ortega upgrades are: Os Veo, Aura Ancestral, Trick Shooting, Wade In, Tormenta de Plomo, Hermanos de Armas and Diestro. None of these give rapid fire. None of the wave 1 or 2 upgrades give rapid fire either. What am I missing? Is it possible this is an old upgrade that doesn't exist any more? Was it released as part of an FAQ or am I just being blind? I've read through all of the Wave 1 family models, all of both wave's upgrades and I can't find it!!

[entropolous]

It was left out of the book, it came in the Wave one arsenal decks

[ArcticPangolin]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of Hair Trigger on Nino. As people have said, cover is your friend against shooty crews. Make sure that you have anough terrain to balance out their ranged abilities; this can also make getting the most out of Perdita's Relocate ability difficult as well. Against Nino, if you can get something to engage him, he'll have to waste an Action Point to push out, meaning no Rapid Fire, or something else will have to help him (such as Obey or Shackled), which can be an even bigger waste of your opponent's hand and model's AP.

 

As others have said, punch out Francisco to get rid of his El Mayor buff but also see if you can spare a pyroblast or couple of bullets for the Enslaved Neph to cut down on their movement antics.

[Dirial]

It was left out of the book, it came in the Wave one arsenal decks

 

Huh? It's in mine, page 117, big rulebook, bottom right corner.

[Myyrä]

It was left out of the first print of the book.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

AARRRGGGHHH! That's just annoying as hell! I spent ages pulling my hair out and thinking I was going mad looking for that upgrade!! I read the whole of both Guild sections of both rulebooks about a dozen times!! So the copy of the book I have has a picture of Papa Loco instead of that upgrade? I really do get fed up with Wyrd sometimes. How can they add in extra content to the same book after they've released that book without doing an official reprint? They should send me an updated copy of the rulebook gratis! What else has changed? I wonder if there are any other upgrades that they've not included in the original book that I'm missing out on?

[Jimbobovalsocks]

Thanks Articpangolin! I think that maybe the extremely open terrain really played against me in this game. I think another big change I'd make would be to be patient and not rush to assasinate Perita in the first turn! I got excited after realising she was deployed in range of Sonnia without considering how difficult to hit she'd be and how exposed Sonnia would be if I left her out in the open! I think it's a case of playing patiently, focusing on your VPs and waiting until you're in range to take out key support pieces. I suppose it works both ways in that you can shut down large areas of the board against the Ortegas as they are going to want to keep clear of your killy models and relly on their shooting!

[4thstringer]

1. Flamewall is your friend...with a certain totem you can get two walls off per turn. 

 

And with Hannah you can make that three per turn, if you want to get crazy with it.

[MasterDisaster]

Ah, he was horrible. He was positioned so that he had a clear view 36 inches across the whole of the board and then another corridor to his left 9into my half of the table) which meant that he was able to focus and shoot sonnia from turn 1 and then catch my other modes as they moved accross the board down his other 'corridor'. 

 

The simple fact of the matter is that if a Sniper such as Hans, Nino, Trappers etc can draw a line of sight 36" down the board then you have not setup the board correctly. You should have a minimum of 33% of the board covered with terrain ranging from small scatter terrain such as barrels, rocky outcrops, crates etc to larger terrain such as forests and buildings etc. When you encounter large lanes like this it's in both players interests to keep the game fair by adding cover to these lanes to stop crazy stuff like this from happening. Sure Nino has a  built into his gun but the cover negates this meaning you actually stand a decent chance of avoiding the bullet in the first place. 

 

Also lay Flamewalls in these lanes. They will prevent LoS and in turn you can move without getting turned into swiss cheese. 

[Dirial]

1. Flamewall is your friend...with a certain totem you can get two walls off per turn. 

 

And with Hannah you can make that three per turn, if you want to get crazy with it.

 

Can Hannah copy from non-Freikorps Leaders? I thought she couldn't.

 

EDIT: Looked it up. If she can by some trickery, then I would be very interested to hear it, because she cannot target friendly Leaders with Make a New Entry.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Dirial

[Myyrä]

Can Hannah copy from non-Freikorps Leaders? I thought she couldn't.

No she can't and she can't copy Just Like You either, because it isn't a cast action. I don't see how three flame walls could be done under normal rules. (Unless your opponent puts some down of course.)