Question on Lilith's Disappear

[asrian]

This came up tonight (didn't effect the game) but Lilith's Disappear defense trigger. It just states:  

Df (  ) Disappear: After another model misses this model with a Ml Action, the Attacker receives -2 Ml against this model until the end of the Turn.

So, is this stackable, as it doesn't place a condition, or would it be only usable once per model per turn? Case in point Ironsides swung and missed at Lilith, I cheated a 13 and gave Ironsides -2 Ml. Ironsides swung again, and I had a 12 in hand to cheat again, but honestly didn't know if it was even stackable or not, so decided not to use my card.

 

Anyone know? As I said, it didn't effect the outcome of the game in any way as I didn't try for it, but am curious what others think.

[Bengt]

Box on page 53, last paragraph. "All other effects in the game which are not Conditions always stack unless they state otherwise."

[Uktena]

While I know the forum mods are really pushing us to have reasoning based on rules behind our answers, I'm afraid I don't have one for this instance - entirely because I do not believe there is a conclusive answer (which is also why I believe this thread is doomed to spiral into a minutiae argument).  PLEASE READ BENGT'S POST BELOW.

 

For what it's worth though, I play it as a single, non-stackable effect.  Not because I believe that the condition rules or modifier rules have any particular traction, but because it's fair.

 

Let's say Lilith is being attacked by a Ml 5 model and no cards have been flipped yet save initiative.  For purposes of the experiment, let's say they flip an ace and a two.

 

The model attacks, and Lilith is on the advantage in this duel by 1 (technically 2, but ties go to the attacker).  Already there are 5 cards in the deck that if Lilith flips or cheats, she will be impossible to hit, and if she uses a Soulstone then she will always get her suit.  If she hits her trigger and Disappears, that increases the gap for the next attack by another 2.  So now the second attack is Ml3, and Lilith is still Df7.  The attacking model is now facing 13 cards in the deck that make Lilith impossible to hit - provided none of the 13's or the RJ have been discarded yet.  That's basically a quarter of the deck.   On top of that, the model can only get a neutral flip in this circumstance if it wins the duel by 6 or more, meaning that Lilith must flip an ace through a four and decide not to (or be unable to) cheat, or hit a BJ.  Any higher and there's no cards in the deck that allow a Ml3 model to win by 6, ensuring a negative flip to damage.

 

Because your question concerns instances of AP expenditures beyond 2, consider what happens now.  The model attacking is Ml1.  Lilith is Df7.  21 cards in the deck are now impossible to hit.  If Lilith flips higher than a two, neutral flips are impossible (barring whatever jiggery-pokery is in the Action's bylines).  If she flips a two, the attacker will have a neutral flip on the RJ only. 

 

Bear in mind that it will only get easier to run away with this as it progresses, and while the cards don't look so hopeless with a Ml6 or higher model, for the cost of a Soulstone for a suit (if even necessary), I don't think this kind of defense is fair or fun.

 

So I don't do it! 

 

PS: It's late, check my math.

[Uktena]

Box on page 53, last paragraph. "All other effects in the game which are not Conditions always stack unless they state otherwise."

 

I'm leaving that post.  It took me forever.

[asrian]

Thank you both for the help. As I said it didn't effect the game, but I wanted to know for future purposes.

[Snakeshit]

@Uktena the moral of the story is don't try kill her with a model that only has ML5 that's like taking a knife to a gunfight. Secondly if you are hitting her with a model that has ML7 make sure you have a good card to make sure attack one is successful. Or attack her when all the cards are out of hand. Df7 models are tricky I think the timing of the attack on them is important.  

[The Godlyness]

Box on page 53, last paragraph. "All other effects in the game which are not Conditions always stack unless they state otherwise."

[caen]

"the Attacker" - is the modell currently attaking Lilith or all attacking models in this turn?

[Ausplosions]

Only the model attacking.

[caen]

So when 2 (or more)  models attacked Lilith in on turn I have to use the trigger on each of them to make them -2 Ml?

 

Or only on first model atacking Lilith in each turn?

[MasterDisaster]

Lilith's trigger only affects a single model at a time. It specifically targets / affects the model attacking her at the time it was triggered so if Model A attacks Lilith and gets Disappeared for -2 Ml. Model B can attack her later and not have the -2 unless Lilith gives it to them by using the trigger again. 

[caen]

Thanks, all clear ....