Colette v Lady J Video Report

[rgarbonzo]

Game starts at about 19:50

 

 

Colette vs Lady J in Reckoning.

 

Colette takes 8 Silent ones and Cabaret Choreography

 

Basically the Silent ones are almost impossible to kill at all, so the Guild player will not score for Reckoning while Colette's All Together Now action allows them to take a (1) AP action (gaining 8 AP) for the cost of 2 of her AP. 

 

Is this correct? Is there a balance issue?

[Sevorin]

Probably should write a synopsis, which will then entice people to watch it. I think you found a legitimate balance issue.

[The Godlyness]

I dont think so at all you have to drop Scheme markers down then later to make a one action later on in the turn. so they might walk and then drop but this makes them incredly slow. on the un killable thing being df 3 is a great down side making a bunch of attacks and more or less hitting them is painful. sure they have a sweet DF trigger but the first hit will Do Full Damage. so then a few small ones or any condition removal or anything that can not be reduced. or WP duels being WP 4 an all.

 

Multiple attack triggers(onslaught) will get to make all their attacks at full damage. Reasons. it is after resolving the First attack has not fully resolved therefore no frozen statue till after the Second attack. If a Maul trigger or and endless trigger happens until the last attack actually resolves would its trigger kick in (but i fully expect it to be dead being DF3) So yes while Seemingly Great in no way shape or form is this Broken or op.

 

So in the Battle report you told him that it only ever does 1damage which Demoralized your opponent lol. Cheaty face

[Bengt]

What others said about Statue.

 

All together now requires Scheme Markers and while that may seem powerful along with Rehearsed, the (0) is still an Interact so the Scheme Markers need to be placed 4" apart. Meaning it requires a somewhat strict formation and activation order to get a few extra AP each turn.

 

Didn't watch very much, but the google+ screen that popped up all the time was pretty annoying.

[rgarbonzo]

After resolving against an enemy, this model gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: "Statue: This model reduces all damage it suffers to 1, and is not considered to be Engaged for purposes of Ice Mirror or Shattered Mirror."

 

Since after resolving triggers happen at the resolution of the duel they happen before the damage flip as outlined in the rule book. The damage flip is the result of a duel, the duel has resolved, Silent One lost, gets trigger takes 1 damage.

 

Now I could be playing this wrong but according to the how the rules interact there is a resolution of the duel after step 5. Determine Success.

 

Then "once success or failure is determined, the cards in use are discarded, and then the results of success or failure are resolved" -pg 27 LRB So after resolving against the enemy (duel) you get the trigger at the same time (or before) the damage flip thus you can only do one damage. 

 

"After Resolving - These effects happen after step 5 regardless of who wins the duel" - pg 26 LRB

 

Also if two triggers are resolved at the same time (i.e. after step 5) the Defender's Trigger resolves first - pg 26 LRB

 

So even in the Onslaught scenario, the Silent Ones trigger resolves before you get another attack but the only damage you will do is one because the damage is an effect of the attack and the trigger is after resolving. 

[Carcosa]

That is some seriously bad wording going on with that Df trigger

[Bengt]

You apply damage during step 5, it's in the first paragraph under "5. Determine Success". Statue goes into effect after step 5.

[Math Mathonwy]

Didn't watch very much, but the google+ screen that popped up all the time was pretty annoying.

Agreed, couldn't watch it - too annoying.

[The Godlyness]

Correct me if I am wrong but step 5 is the point where you do damage. So an after damaging trigger would take effect before your after resolving. Therefore onslaught would trigger. The attack is not resolved till the trigger is completed.

[Patzer]

P.38, LRG, in the "Actions Causing Actions" box it clearly states that the original action is not resolved until all the following actions are (like a charge, obey, or onslaught).

So, onslaught would trigger.

 

I don't see the problem with the combo really. The Silent Ones need to put out an hefty amount of scheme markers, which will suck ap. If they want to do it with a (0) action, they have to remain close to Colette, which hinders the scheme marker placement.

 

Also, just attack their WP!

[rgarbonzo]

1. Declare SS use

2. Flip Card, add stat

3. Cheat Fate

4. Declare 1 trigger

5. Determine Success (modifiers and such)

pg 51 LRB - specifies that damage flip is the result of  a duel

 

Maybe it is just some sprucing up of the wording of the trigger like after resolving what exactly? Attack Action? Duel?

[The Godlyness]

It's an after resolving trigger. You posted when they happen in your response lol.

Step 5 is when you apply all effects of the duel, Which is most often damage. But Also any things like slow or poison.

[rgarbonzo]

It's an after resolving trigger. You posted when they happen in your response lol.

Step 5 is when you apply all effects of the duel, Which is most often damage. But Also any things like slow or poison.

 

I guess what I am saying is that if it is after resolving a duel then the effect would be immediate since the duel is resolved and you are proceeding onto the damage flip.

 

Whereas if it is after resolving an Attack Action then it would trigger after the damage flip and triggers like Onslaught since Actions caused by Actions are not resolved until the extra stuff is resolved. 

 

Anyway a bit of clarity, I think, may be needed, and no I am not intentionally trying to be obtuse

[The Godlyness]

I understand your confusion.

"After Resolving - These effects happen after step 5 regardless of who wins the duel" - pg 26 LRB

So it's not after resolving the duel total it's the whole duel and any effects caused by thst duel. it's after step 5 which is after "After Damaging" triggers occur. So with actions causing actions the silent ones df trigger would not be able to trigger off the first attack since the second attack is made during step 5 and makes a whole new attack. The first attack has not resolved therefore "After resolving" trigger can't go off yet.

I think I explained that well.

[Kadeton]

The main 'balance issue' here seems to be the confusion about how and when Statue is applied. That needs to be cleared up before any sensible discussion can be had - everyone seems to be arguing from different starting assumptions.

For the record, my assumptions would have been that Statue would not reduce the first attack's damage, but would affect additional attacks (Onslaught, etc). That Actions Causing Actions callout has caused so many problems that I don't like relying on it any more.

[The Godlyness]

Some actions will force or allow a model to take another Action. If an Action calls for another Action to be taken then the additional Action or Actions do not cost any AP. the original Action is not considered resolved until the new Actions are also resolved. Some Abilities may force models to do something when declaring an Action. For these Abilities, each new Action generated triggers for the Abilities seperatly"

I think it very clearly states that the first action is not resolved. Therefore an "After resolving" trigger can't be used till after the resolution of the second action. It would trigger again for no effect once the second action is resolved then the first action would resolve.

These are not my opinions just the rules from the book. I don't make them I just play by them. And no arguments have been made just a gentleman's discussion.

[rgarbonzo]

I agree with that sentiment some clarity on when Statue is applied would be helpful, I could have played them totally wrong and that would make the list easier to deal with but as they are worded it makes it hard to discern exactly when. Again not trying to be obtuse or argumentative just that I can see where there is issue with when the trigger actually goes off.

I ran across a line I hadn't noticed before, triggers happen immediately unless another time is indicated in its description. hmm....

 

Also according to the triggers guide in the rule book After Succeeding (if you win) and After Failing (if you lose) are resolved immediately after step 5. After resolving happens after step 5 regardless of who won the duel... 

[The Godlyness]

Let's put the Onslaught trigger on the back burner for a hot second.

I think everyone can agree that the first attack Would deal full damage. If some one thinks otherwise please explain why.

[rgarbonzo]

I have specified why I feel that they resolve after step 5. I mean I could be wrong and I really hope I am.

[The Godlyness]

....dammint rgarbonzo hop in chat makes having a conversation easier.

 

damage is done during step 5. so if the trigger happens after step 5 the damage has already been done lol.

[Makrar]

Words for the word god!

 

(AKA Dont quote beta rules)

[Sevorin]

....dammint rgarbonzo hop in chat makes having a conversation easier.

 

damage is done during step 5. so if the trigger happens after step 5 the damage has already been done lol.

 Yeah, this is how I originally looked at it, then I second guessed myself.

[Lucidicide]

The damage is part of step 5. "Apply results" is part of what's in step 5, which would be the damage flip.

 

The trigger is not a direct result of the duel (unlike damage).

[rgarbonzo]

Then what the heck is step 3 in the action sequence- step 5 of the duel?

[rgarbonzo]

and if that is the case a nice FAQ entry would be appropriate me thinks, since the is no Step 5 in the Action sequence