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Keeping the Fated off balance, think tank


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OK, one of the things I want to avoid is that my players get all warm and cozy knowing what to expect when they fight something. Like a pack of canine remains, after knowing that 1 was hit with a TN of 10, they instantly  know that's what they need to cheat in and at the same time when dodging with another 10 they already know the drill of how to avoid getting hit. Thing is, I would really like to know how other DM operate to subvert their expectations.

 

Right of the bat, I've already read the suggestions in the DM almanac of screwing around with rank on a by model basis, but also on a by skill basis, so that got me thinking that maybe the best way to unbalance them a bit is to pick up the "multiples" in a given encounter and give them stuff they are better at in semiarbitrary fashion. For example, back to the canine remains example, we could have a big bulldog who is peon when dodging, but is henchman when attacking, a small yappy dog who is the opposite and stuff like that.

 

Have people experiment with this to try and make the players unease at what they are facing at least for a few turns?

 

I've also considered just cutting the crap and using a separate fate deck for NPCs, but I also understand that it slows the game dynamic and would like to keep the static difficulty thing to keep flips to the minimum.

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I have given it some thought as well but at the same time I would not want to mess with this to much as vary to much becomes alot of bookkeeping giving them varying ranking in what they do.   I was think more what I was planning was to perhaps have 3 of the Dogs have a Rank 4, two at Rank 5, and one at Rank 6.  Just don't tell the players which one are which, but when you describe them say some are freshers or more whole than others while others are more rotten or damaged, perhaps uglier though due to the rot and damage.  That way when the first one is attacked they can assume they are all the same, only to find out when another attacks or is attacked that they are indeed different.  Because lets be honest, when a group of undead dogs are coming at you and the first person pegged one pretty easy everyone at first will assume be the same for them, let them learn reality is not like that.

 

I of course would also label the dogs as 1-6, which a little note on my stuff which ones had what rank.  That way when they say they want to shoot the rightmost dog, I can glance and see which one that is.

 

Once you have done this one you have set a presidence with them that things can indeed vary slightly.  It will make them more mindful that just because a group of foes might be similar, does not mean they are necessarily all equals.  You can even then mix it up later by more adjustments.  Maybe you catch up to that Resser and he has more canine remains around him, these being the best of the pack.  These ones might have three at Rank 5, two at Rank 6 but all have one better point in a skill or aspect *maybe toughness due to the special treatment from the resser*.  Don't be afraid to do stuff like Toughness either as you can throw them for a loop when they thought they only had to deal 4 wounds and they find out this patch of dogs have 5wds.

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There's a couple of things at play here (BIG NOTE: The following is my Personal Opinion, your mileage may vary based on how you game) to help with keeping Fated nervous, a decent chunk of which revolve around being descriptive. The starting points are "Does this fight 'matter'?" and "Are you killing your darlings?"

 

The Fated have a severe benefit in the action ecomony of a fight. Combat fights will more often than not be quantity versus quantity to help balance out the out activation the Players have. Does this mean that you should be trying to monkey stomp the players constantly? Not necessarily. Stories often employ "Morale booster" fights; the Master sends out his peons to soften the group up a bit, a group of ruffians sees a quick score of monies, etc. The important thing is "what does this fight do for the story?"

 

To use the above example: let's say the Fated are trying to track down this graverobber who's been piecing together Guild Guard for his army, and their travels have taken them to a cemetery. A fight with Canine Remains would come into play if the Fated failed to sneak in for example. That fight would escalate if the ruckus went on for too long. A fight would ALSO come into play if an emaciated gentleman calling himself Rafkin lauched out from behind a mauseleum, injecting a Fated with something brackish and green. Having static numbers is fine because it frees up space for more rolEplaying (Since the players know what the numbers are, the description changes from "12, hit for moderate damage" to "I draw a bead down the sights of my Collier and I blast a hole in the zombie's shin".

 

The next important discussion is "Killing your darlings". At character creation, players are told "You're either accepting your fate, or denying it." This already sets the players up for "How do I change this situation?" Players will come up with a way to beat the scenario. It is likely that they'll come up with something completely surprising. And another thing to take into account is that the Red Joker and the Black Joker will change the game. When the players get their win, don't feel like you should change it because they 'got lucky'. Players are trying to change the story, so if they figure out how, let em have it.

 

With that, here's some ways to totally freak out your players ^_^

 

1) Stagger the fight. Figure out what you want to throw at them, then break it up into pieces. If you look at Avengers, after the heroes defeated the first transport vehicle, then Loki's all "Right, send in wave 2", that provides a SOLID panic, especially if you throw a solid enforcer at them.

 

2) Look to the Masters. Ironsides and Avatar Seamus provide some REALLY good ideas on a "stages fight". Give the more important NPCs "Adrenaline" or "Rabid" or other conditions that increase based on how the fight changes. Also, this is spooky magic world. Characters bursting into giant monstrosities is a completely normal reaction.

 

3) Glass cannon it. In my experience, the more interesting fights are fullbore slugfests that wrap up quickly. You hit a player for half his wounds, all of a sudden things become SLIGHTLY more urgent.

 

The last important thing to do is make sure you're descriptive of these events happening. The players need to know that "Each time you've hit this M&SU bouncer, she seems to shrug off some of the damage. She also seems to be winding up for something big."

 

Hope this helps!

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Thanks Brew, those were some interesting suggestions. I've seen the descriptive at work and tried to employ it (I'm not very good at it yet) but I haven't tried the rest of them. I'm not familiar with Rabid or Adrenaline though, how do those work?

 

I had a couple glass cannons in my campaign last night, (first one! \o/) and knocked two of my players down to half health, then had them go up against the mini boss that they could have tried to talk out of what she was doing... but didn't even try lol they just went in guns blazing. 

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I have also employed a random number addition to all duels that the Fated have to face against. I have a small grid that is full of values 0, 1 ,2 and 3. Each corner of the grid is one of those numbers and then I just add that value to my dule total. I vary where I start from in each encounter and vary the pattern that I traverse the grid. It gives the same incremtal buff to what the Fated are up against and its really difficult for them to try and 'game' as it is random, so it make them look at their twist deck a bit more or focus as a just in case.

 

Just a 5x5 grid is fine you dont need too many numbers eg.

 

0 1 3 0 2

1 1 2 0 1

3 3 2 1 0

2 1 1 0 2

1 0 1 2 3

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Thanks Brew, those were some interesting suggestions. I've seen the descriptive at work and tried to employ it (I'm not very good at it yet) but I haven't tried the rest of them. I'm not familiar with Rabid or Adrenaline though, how do those work?

 

Adrenaline is something that Toni Ironside uses in the game.  It is a condition that can build up on her that she can use for a varity of different things.  What I think he was trying to say was that you could have a condition that builds up as they fight, perhaps on damage or hits or even on turns that as the fight progresses either builds up to something or unleases something.

 

In Toni's case she has an attack that is Ml4 but she gets a bonus to it for her Adrenaline up to Ml8.  So if you start hurting her she can wind up for a serious hurting as the attack has a pretty solid damage profile.  Adrenaline also for her reduces at end of the turn as sort of a reverse poison where she gains one wound back and it goes down 1.  She can also spend it with triggers and other abilities.

 

So you could have a madman that as he takes hits and deals hits builds up a "Frenzy" condition.  PErhaps once he gets to +1 frenzy he gains hard to wound, at +3 Frenzy he gets a +1 to attack duels, at +6 Frenzy he gains Melee Expect, or something like that.

 

You can basically create abilities or conditions that give a fight a progressive element outside of wounds, kind of like how many bosses in video games anymore might switch their patterns based on their remaining lives, or gain access to new attacks.

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I have also employed a random number addition to all duels that the Fated have to face against. I have a small grid that is full of values 0, 1 ,2 and 3. Each corner of the grid is one of those numbers and then I just add that value to my dule total. I vary where I start from in each encounter and vary the pattern that I traverse the grid. It gives the same incremtal buff to what the Fated are up against and its really difficult for them to try and 'game' as it is random, so it make them look at their twist deck a bit more or focus as a just in case.

 

Just a 5x5 grid is fine you dont need too many numbers eg.

 

0 1 3 0 2

1 1 2 0 1

3 3 2 1 0

2 1 1 0 2

1 0 1 2 3

Curious to know how this is working on the higher ranked NPC's. I can see this working well on the low end (Enforcer and below) but making an already difficult encounter impossible with Henchman or higher.

 

As for the other suggestions, I would agree that keeping the narrative high is a good method of off balancing the fated. Dont just tell them they hit, describe the combat in a dramatic manner. I also agree that the "running gun battle" is another great method. Having the NPC's running thru town, luring the fated into nasty traps or compromising positions (such as into the quarantine zone or guild headquarters) can "encourage" them to try other methods of resolution rather than combat. Taking a page from the World of Darkness RPG's, build a strong prohibition against combat into the game.

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Adrenaline is something that Toni Ironside uses in the game.  It is a condition that can build up on her that she can use for a varity of different things.  What I think he was trying to say was that you could have a condition that builds up as they fight, perhaps on damage or hits or even on turns that as the fight progresses either builds up to something or unleases something.

 

In Toni's case she has an attack that is Ml4 but she gets a bonus to it for her Adrenaline up to Ml8.  So if you start hurting her she can wind up for a serious hurting as the attack has a pretty solid damage profile.  Adrenaline also for her reduces at end of the turn as sort of a reverse poison where she gains one wound back and it goes down 1.  She can also spend it with triggers and other abilities.

 

So you could have a madman that as he takes hits and deals hits builds up a "Frenzy" condition.  PErhaps once he gets to +1 frenzy he gains hard to wound, at +3 Frenzy he gets a +1 to attack duels, at +6 Frenzy he gains Melee Expect, or something like that.

 

You can basically create abilities or conditions that give a fight a progressive element outside of wounds, kind of like how many bosses in video games anymore might switch their patterns based on their remaining lives, or gain access to new attacks.

I must try this... *evil laugh here* 

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Curious to know how this is working on the higher ranked NPC's. I can see this working well on the low end (Enforcer and below) but making an already difficult encounter impossible with Henchman or higher.

 

As for the other suggestions, I would agree that keeping the narrative high is a good method of off balancing the fated. Dont just tell them they hit, describe the combat in a dramatic manner. I also agree that the "running gun battle" is another great method. Having the NPC's running thru town, luring the fated into nasty traps or compromising positions (such as into the quarantine zone or guild headquarters) can "encourage" them to try other methods of resolution rather than combat. Taking a page from the World of Darkness RPG's, build a strong prohibition against combat into the game.

To add to the "running gun battle" idea, in addition to having a disincentive to combat due to environment/setting or being ambushed/trapped as you mentioned, you could have the thing they are after be important enough and totally focused on escaping/timed in some way so that the Fated are treating the ambushes/traps as "obstacles" to be hurdled as quickly as possible with as little effort as possible in an effort to keep up the chase, rather than another fight to get bogged down in and resolve with a huge combat.  It depends on your group and your FM style, but giving them real penalties for not being able to do something fast enough (or real rewards for being able to), and keeping them informed of exactly how far away the target is and how long they probably have before their mission is a bust can do wonders in my experience. 

 

I will admit a lot of this comes from other RPGs, as I have not had a chance to play TTB yet myself, but the idea of reducing what would be long drawn out fights to something the players want to avoid by any means necessary or at least try to get around rather than through is a great one in any RPG. 

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Correct Eternalvoid. Lupercal hit an important point as well. If you played the skirmish game as a straight up fighty fight, there are certain crews that will demolish others. But when you add strategies and schemes, all of a sudden the game changes. Treat the RPG the same way. Don't make it about kill the things, make it about objectives.

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What we do is very simple really. Since you could make a fated char with 5 def rendering them combatwise imuum to a lot of the attacks(or low lvl opponents in general) unless you draw a black joker. Our group flips for non fated aswell. Which makes it very tricky and also a lot more dangerous since even the peons and minions in larger numbers are a possible threat (since they can flip 13's aswell, They cannot cheat however). Which inturn you can still see what you need to cheat in order to beat it but it can be lower or higher. Also this goes for skill checks. Otherwise a gambler walks into a bar and simply runs off with 100 scrip, or other such related skills. Now he has to flip against certain non fated chars with difference in stat skills and immediatly brings back a feeling of possible failure instead of simply i need threshold X or Y against the whole room, and wait and save up cards and then do your thing cause nobody can beat you with a 10-13 in your hand. It works for us and it makes the game very unpredictable and a lot more fun.

 

So in short

oppenent(GM) flips for def,attack and dmg. Or opposed skills like bewitch and the works. Which brings randomness back to the game instead of static numbering you know when to beat or how. and add their respective stats in the book to the flipped total.

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for battles i just work with normal rules and switch between the 5-6 for minions etc.. to make things a bit different, for other social things etc, it is a bit harder, i work with difference in ratings, is the rating the same, normal rules otherwise you get penalties or even buffs.

 

example:
a wastrel character has barter, and wants to buy things but at a lower price, he has a rating of 2, me general store owner how ever has a rating of 4. difference of 2. lets the standard barter TN he had to get was a 12, but since he is bartering with someone far more skilled. i just add the difference in XP (to get to 3 you need 2 xp, to get to 4 you need 5 xp) thus he has to succeed on a 17 TN duel.

the same wastrel is trying to convince someone that he is not a bad guy. the wastrel has a convince rating of 3. this is resisted on WP no rating here or a skill that can help, so we use centering or scrutiny, the highest one applies here. normal TN would be 12, since our other guy also has a rating of 3, it stays the same. should the other guy had a rating of 2. it would be 10. difference in Xp

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I liked the idea of one flip counts both ways, but I really think that need to be in a different game. Anyone who plays Malifaux already know the duel system, and anyone who plays TTB and then gets interested in Malifaux will have to learn the duel system. Why not just leave the duel system as it? The FM gets his own deck, and the players get a communal deck. Players still get they personal twist deck for cheating and the FM get a card for each player to use for the whole session for cheating. That would be the idea I would have used, which I am sure will be shot down very quickly after this is posted.

 

On the topic at hand, while I agree the FM should be able to change anything she likes, they should still follow some rules. Otherwise the players can become very dishearted in a world they have no control in. No matter the method you use, the players will still game the system in combat. I often use the descriptive method for hits and wounds, but players will still get an idea what the number was and what was needed to get a hit. Being in the playtest since week 2, I just come to know that combat in this game is never going to be what you think it is. Combat if anything, is just a little something for the players to have a chance to all flip cards for a little while and then move on. If my track record holds, after I post this, someone will disagree and tell a tale about a terror tot that almost killed 4 fated of that I don't GM very well. Personally, I just keep my fated off balance outside of combat. 

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I think that the fate master having his own deck to randomize results is the way to go. The best thing is it only requires a small modification to the twist deck drawing.

 

 

On the topic at hand, while I agree the FM should be able to change anything she likes, they should still follow some rules. Otherwise the players can become very dishearted in a world they have no control in. No matter the method you use, the players will still game the system in combat. I often use the descriptive method for hits and wounds, but players will still get an idea what the number was and what was needed to get a hit. Being in the playtest since week 2, I just come to know that combat in this game is never going to be what you think it is. Combat if anything, is just a little something for the players to have a chance to all flip cards for a little while and then move on. If my track record holds, after I post this, someone will disagree and tell a tale about a terror tot that almost killed 4 fated of that I don't GM very well. Personally, I just keep my fated off balance outside of combat. 

I can not agree with this more. A fate master that has to continually resort to heavy handed tactics to provide challenging combats is more than likely going to distance his players and not really accomplish the desired goal. Imposing negatives to the TN via environmental, sensory or tool deficiencies does not effect all players or NPC's equally.

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What we do is very simple really. Since you could make a fated char with 5 def rendering them combatwise imuum to a lot of the attacks(or low lvl opponents in general) unless you draw a black joker. Our group flips for non fated aswell. Which makes it very tricky and also a lot more dangerous since even the peons and minions in larger numbers are a possible threat (since they can flip 13's aswell, They cannot cheat however). Which inturn you can still see what you need to cheat in order to beat it but it can be lower or higher. Also this goes for skill checks. Otherwise a gambler walks into a bar and simply runs off with 100 scrip, or other such related skills. Now he has to flip against certain non fated chars with difference in stat skills and immediatly brings back a feeling of possible failure instead of simply i need threshold X or Y against the whole room, and wait and save up cards and then do your thing cause nobody can beat you with a 10-13 in your hand. It works for us and it makes the game very unpredictable and a lot more fun.

 

So in short

oppenent(GM) flips for def,attack and dmg. Or opposed skills like bewitch and the works. Which brings randomness back to the game instead of static numbering you know when to beat or how. and add their respective stats in the book to the flipped total.

 

Ugh, I hadn't considered that scenario. Hell, reading the rulebook, I saw the horror example from Fated against enemies and it's pretty much a guaranteed paralyze AOE on living npcs with a moderate card. So right of the bat that makes me think I can't really allow fated to get their hands on using horror as such...

 

And the gambling example is pretty annoying too, though I can work with that making the guys in the bar not taking kindly to "cheaters" or some other shenanigans. Basically, it is a fated's right to alter their destiny, that's why they get their hand after all, so I'm not really sure if it's just something I have to accept and shouldn't touch even if it devolves in "can never lose" scenarios sometimes.

 

 

for battles i just work with normal rules and switch between the 5-6 for minions etc.. to make things a bit different, for other social things etc, it is a bit harder, i work with difference in ratings, is the rating the same, normal rules otherwise you get penalties or even buffs.

 

example:

a wastrel character has barter, and wants to buy things but at a lower price, he has a rating of 2, me general store owner how ever has a rating of 4. difference of 2. lets the standard barter TN he had to get was a 12, but since he is bartering with someone far more skilled. i just add the difference in XP (to get to 3 you need 2 xp, to get to 4 you need 5 xp) thus he has to succeed on a 17 TN duel.

the same wastrel is trying to convince someone that he is not a bad guy. the wastrel has a convince rating of 3. this is resisted on WP no rating here or a skill that can help, so we use centering or scrutiny, the highest one applies here. normal TN would be 12, since our other guy also has a rating of 3, it stays the same. should the other guy had a rating of 2. it would be 10. difference in Xp

 

Your system sounds pretty interesting actually. Do you also apply it in combat or only for non dramatic interactions?

 

I liked the idea of one flip counts both ways, but I really think that need to be in a different game. Anyone who plays Malifaux already know the duel system, and anyone who plays TTB and then gets interested in Malifaux will have to learn the duel system. Why not just leave the duel system as it? The FM gets his own deck, and the players get a communal deck. Players still get they personal twist deck for cheating and the FM get a card for each player to use for the whole session for cheating. That would be the idea I would have used, which I am sure will be shot down very quickly after this is posted.

 

On the topic at hand, while I agree the FM should be able to change anything she likes, they should still follow some rules. Otherwise the players can become very dishearted in a world they have no control in. No matter the method you use, the players will still game the system in combat. I often use the descriptive method for hits and wounds, but players will still get an idea what the number was and what was needed to get a hit. Being in the playtest since week 2, I just come to know that combat in this game is never going to be what you think it is. Combat if anything, is just a little something for the players to have a chance to all flip cards for a little while and then move on. If my track record holds, after I post this, someone will disagree and tell a tale about a terror tot that almost killed 4 fated of that I don't GM very well. Personally, I just keep my fated off balance outside of combat. 

 

The more I think about just giving the fatemaster his own deck, the more it rubs me the wrong way because of how variable it is. It can perfectly make a combat against what would intentionally have been a henchman be a joke after a string of Aces for example or make an insane social scenario full of vipers that want to destroy you socially become a laughing stock. I also would rather the Fatemaster never had a hand since then it kind of starts becoming a "me vs them" scenario. I have also wondered about a similar system to Osoi (though using cards) but with values going from -3 to +3 for example. Hell, you could use a normal deck and apply "damage prevention logic", red cards add to the npc stat while black cards substract, so an 11 of rams gets the npc +3 but a 12 of crows gives it -3 and so on. Black is -4 and red is +4 and there wouldn't be a 0 in the equation or maybe would play without jokers in the fatemaster deck.

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I've had a lot of luck with reskinning beasties.  All the fiction in Malifaux I've read leads me to believe the variety of horrors is so expansive, it's very possible you'll never run into the same creature twice.  I'll use the game stats for a nephilim or canine remains, but it sure as hell won't look or act like one.

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Your system sounds pretty interesting actually. Do you also apply it in combat or only for non dramatic interactions?

 

 

not really, i just switch between the 2 numbers, sometimes they get 5 sometimes they get 6. because well. some creatures don't always attack the same or dodge the same.

a minion switches between 5-6, enforcer between 7-8, henchman 9-10 master 11-12. i just switch, sometimes i use 1 and sometimes something else, and sometimes i give something the enforcer status (if its a minion)

 

(wow i just noticed how f*cked up wrong i wrote everything down yesterday)

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not really, i just switch between the 2 numbers, sometimes they get 5 sometimes they get 6. because well. some creatures don't always attack the same or dodge the same.

a minion switches between 5-6, enforcer between 7-8, henchman 9-10 master 11-12. i just switch, sometimes i use 1 and sometimes something else, and sometimes i give something the enforcer status (if its a minion)

 

(wow i just noticed how f*cked up wrong i wrote everything down yesterday)

Mmmm, I'd rather have a way to do this that the players can see so it doesn't just seem I'm making stuff up as I go.

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One of my players has Def 7! I threw an enforcer at him and he bounced off, as his modified attack number (the one in brackets) was a measly 7... I quite like the idea of the FM fate deck with a hand of cheat cards based on the number of players, I may put this to the group to see what they think of it, or alternatively I may just do it anyway and let them draw a card after I cheat instead of whenever I touch the communal fate deck...

 

I'll let y'all know how it goes.

 

Vince.

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Mmmm, I'd rather have a way to do this that the players can see so it doesn't just seem I'm making stuff up as I go.

it doesn't since it says right in the FM book that a minion has 2 rank value's, so u just decide now he has this, and BAM, has that rank number, at "random"

when a canine remains bulldog is charging, lets assume he has 6, but when he is just attacking, he has a 5. there is a bit of logic here :)

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it doesn't since it says right in the FM book that a minion has 2 rank value's, so u just decide now he has this, and BAM, has that rank number, at "random"

when a canine remains bulldog is charging, lets assume he has 6, but when he is just attacking, he has a 5. there is a bit of logic here :)

OH, you mean preeastblished, or once established it's always X. Yeah, I've considered that too, though being more extreme with one canine being an enforcer when attacking and a peon when defending or stuff like that, but yeah, it's the sameish concept.

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Other thing to toss in that occurred to me as I was looking through the book. The general talent "call shot" allows Fated to discard a card for that suit when causing a critical effect. Reverse engineering says that there have to be enemies that go below 0 wounds and are subject to Critical Effects.

Well, that's sort of a given, you have your irrelevant guys who die when their Wd are at 0 and then your "badass boss characters" who can take similar punishment as Fated.

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